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Post by hazmod on Dec 7, 2013 6:48:52 GMT
Noel, What is building this bridge! IPMS will staying this title on more years I'm back with John T and Fastcat and I'm agreed both We can't get make my 1/24 scale, white metal car kit, on two decade, and I want build this WM car kit on further LET ALL MODEL ENGINEER WILL MAKE BUILDING THIS BRIDGE WITH IPMS I know, next generation modellers who will more interested build new hybrid model kits with plastic, resin, and all metals on future Hornby company will plan this secret model train for new hybrid materials on future, and junior modellers will buy new hybrid models
LET IPMS MEMBERS WILL WANT BUILDING THE BRIDGE WITH MODEL ENGINEERS, MAKE TEAM BRING WITH IPMS
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Post by hazmod on Dec 7, 2013 10:03:37 GMT
I will think about new proposal on two montions on further. Let new regulations for SMW competitions on further I'm back to suggested with new montions Still made building the bridge
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Post by kelvin on Dec 7, 2013 13:43:27 GMT
As a regular judge at SMW I find it frighteneing that we are even contemplating opening up to "any and all materials". In a competition you can only judge "like for like" and if you have wooden models, metal models and plastic models this playing field is a little warped to say the least. I am certainly not advocating banning all other materials - I regularly use etched brass and white metal guns and undercarriages myself but the MAJORITY of the model is Plastic.
Someone mentioned in this thread about the number of companies that are no longer with us. The hobby is supposedly declining but SMW doesn't reflect this and new companys like HK Models are popping up all the time. If we diverge from being a PLASTIC modelling society we will loose even more manufacturers and our choices will be even more restricted.
I know that this is a bit of a generalism but Cars, Trains and Figurines are predominately manufactured in "other mediums" so I see no reason that these can not be included within our hobby as it is not the fault of the modeller that plastic is not the prevelant medium and we do not want to exclude vast numbers of modellers. However, Aircraft and Armour MUST be kept as predominately plastic as possible (I include "resin" as a plastic medium) or we will be providing the hammer for our last death nail.
On a final note, we had over a 100 judging classes at Telford (sorry guys, don't know the exact figure) and we were two hours late re-opening the competition area this year due to the number of brilliant models on display. If we increase the number of classes to judge by slitting out "other materials" we would need to start at 9am and finish at 6pm thus killing the whole idea of displaying our best works to the public.
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Post by NoelSmith on Dec 7, 2013 16:33:25 GMT
John. Thanks for putting the record straight about how IPMS is officially registered. I misunderstood from your earlier post when you said we operate under IPMS UK the Society for Scale Modellers, and I took this to be our official registered title, so I must apologise for that. I cannot help however that calling ourselves the 'society for scale modellers' is a bit if a misnomer as many fine scale modellers work in materials other than plastic. So why do we not use 'the society for plastic modellers' instead in our banner? At least it would be more accurate as we stand at present. Regards Noel
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Post by tony on Dec 9, 2013 9:44:59 GMT
On a final note, we had over a 100 judging classes at Telford (sorry guys, don't know the exact figure) and we were two hours late re-opening the competition area this year due to the number of brilliant models on display. If we increase the number of classes to judge by slitting out "other materials" we would need to start at 9am and finish at 6pm thus killing the whole idea of displaying our best works to the public.
[/quote] Sorry kelvin I just want to correct something before this thread get clogged with corrections. this year we had 95 classes and 45 trophies to judge. we were 25 minuet's late in opening and this was due to the shear numbers of models in some of the categories. the judges do a superb job which they get little thanks for, they only get criticised when somebody has a gripe. Tony[/p]
P.S keep the thoughts coming on the rules changes as it very interesting to read and see peoples perception on this subject.
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Post by seb on Dec 9, 2013 14:15:59 GMT
The more I think about it, the more difficult it seems to find a satisfying answer! - I'd hate to have "IPMS" replaced with anything else. - We shouldn't make rules, which we cannot enforce. BUT: - I shudder at the thought of allowing "all" materials, the consequences could be unmanageable. Think of the commercially available model trains, which nowadays are far superior in details compared with (our) plastic counterparts... As for wooden ships and metal cars... - the SMW would burst at it's seams.
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Post by fastcat on Dec 13, 2013 22:03:03 GMT
Just a reminder regarding Ship Classes, Class 68, Sailing Ships allows ANY material, ANY scale and ANY Definition so surely Noel your point regarding sailing ships whether from wooden kits or scratch-built is already covered within the existing rules. This Class would be one of the least affected by any across the board change in rules. I agree that there are some nice 1/24 all metal car kits available and they're of subjects unlikely to ever be kitted in plastic. Resin? Well maybe. And will we ever see any classic bikes in 1/12th plastic? Somehow I think not. However I still think the vast majority of subjects could be accommodated with an easing of the competition rules. Evolution rather than revolution.
Seb, the original intent of any change was to integrate models with a metal content into existing classes. You're absolutely right, to introduce even more classes would over-burden judges and space. I only mention locos because of the dearth of plastic models available in that sphere. I think, from memory it's currently an under populated Class that could possibly do with pulling in a few more entries.
Kelvin, I think I was the one who mentioned a decline in the hobby. I meant this in terms of plastic kit manufacturers. While SMW seems to illustrate the opposite, when you look closer it gives a false perspective. If you go back to the hey-day of plastics, the output of new subjects was phenomenal. We were getting new models every week. This took place throughout the year and because of the volume of sales prices were low. That's not the case any more, falling demand means that prices will rise as they have over the past few years. I've watched most of the major 1/43 car manufacturers disappear or reduce output to a fraction of what it was in the '90s and if you want 1/24 cars you can count the number of new plastic releases on one hand.
It also means that as lines become less profitable, other production techniques come to the fore which wouldn't have been viable a few years back, hence the rise of the multi media kit. It hasn't happened much to aircraft yet although I think overall sales are well down on what they once were. Cheaper short run tools and lower labour costs have enabled plastics to survive in a market that's traditionally larger than other genres. But................there have been ranges of all metal aircraft kits which ironically probably failed due to a preference for plastic. And there are now some predominantly metal photo etched kits on the market so there are experiments even in aircraft...............
Best regards Dave
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Post by John Tapsell on Dec 13, 2013 22:59:21 GMT
Fastcat,
I have to disagree with your comments about the hobby being in decline.
We currently have more manufacturers (with more popping up all the time), producing more kits, of a higher quality, of more diverse subjects and with an aftermarket industry running to keep up with all those new releases - that's across the board on all subject areas.
Those manufacturers would not exist (and continue to release new products) if the market wasn't there.
Coupled with that, IPMS (UK) has seen it's membership increase by 50% in the past five years. We're now hovering round the 3000 mark, a far cry from the 1800 we had 6-7 years ago.
That to me says that the hobby is vibrant, growing and healthy.
Regards, John
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Post by iansadler on Dec 14, 2013 19:14:26 GMT
Hi all , I have to say that changes should evolve to take into consideration new ways of building models , not be forced on us . As I am the one who introduced the use of Aluminium sheet as a away of replicating parts more in scale . Which has now become an international standard and is used by loads of modelers and this is reflected in the Model Magazines published world wide . This proves my point . Let us please not get bogged down with petty rules , but remember it is hobby that is for your enjoyment. Move with the times but one step at a time . cheers ian
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Post by fastcat on Dec 14, 2013 20:46:04 GMT
Hi John, What you say is true but only up to a point. There are more manufacturers but much lower unit sales which is the main reason this discussion started. Most of the major plastic kit manufacturers didn't close down because of a buoyant market, they closed down because of falling sales. That's fact, not supposition. Most of the new kids on the block have a much lower output and vastly higher prices to compensate.
When I first had a go at 1/43 car kits there were enough new releases each month to fill a magazine. Most of the makers from those days have long gone or are a shadow of their former selves and most of the retail outlets have gone too. On the other hand the same magazine is now filled with metal and resin ready-builts.
Much the same is happening to 1/32 and 1/24 cars. Profil, Le Mans Miniatures and Model Factory Hiro do a wide range of subjects but at a guess, their entire output wouldn't match a single production run from just one plastic manufacturer from days gone by.
Most of the new manufacturers are from what we used to refer to as the "cottage industry" but that perhaps does them an injustice as they've become much more sophisticated than the name would suggest. That's where the future lies I think. Sales in those areas are indeed buoyant and I really hope they flourish because they produce imaginative and original subjects but let's not pretend that sales will ever be as high as in the '60s and '70s again. They simply won't. Like you, I'm pleased to see IPMS grow but to put that in perspective, we have a membership of 3000 against a UK population of over 63,000,000. What we achieve is out of all proportion to our numbers but if we all bought one kit of the same model, it still wouldn't provide any plastic kit manufacturer with one decent production run. I know of quite a few little guys who'd be glad to sell at those levels however!
Best regards Dave
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perdu
Sprue Cutter
Posts: 34
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Post by perdu on Dec 16, 2013 23:31:00 GMT
This is quite an ironic subject for me. Back in the eighties when metal castings began to be introduced into Plastic Modelling I was very much against them, always thought that IPMS should ONLY permit plastic models on the competition tables. Since the obvious trend was to allow them, (I remember Jim Howard using metal on a model. Outraged I was and Jim was a friend) I kind of drifted disinterestedly out of the hobby until three years ago. If metal models become a new 'norm' I expect I'd be off again. I am resigned to the metal additions, 'etch' totally amazes me but to allow a full metal fuselage and wings for example is an awful thought. The skill involved in making a plastic model LOOK metal would be unneeded, just buff up your ally airframe. So sorry Noel I don't agree at all. I still make my models from plastic, did quite nicely at Telford with one completely made of polycard and that gave me huge satisfaction. This must surely be a topic for the entire membership to decide. bill "trading as a lost soul"
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Post by fastcat on Dec 17, 2013 0:45:28 GMT
Bill, I wouldn't worry too much as far as aircraft go. Metal doesn't seem to lend itself too well to aircraft models and as they comprise by far the largest slice of the market there's still a healthy demand for plastic kits. Resin with it's ability to hold fine sections and detail fares a lot better in this respect. I can only think of two long defunct metal aircraft ranges, LDM in 1/48th and C. A. "Tommy" Atkins range in 1/72. I'd guess it would be a long time before metal replaced plastic aircraft totally but I think it was a skeletal kit of a Mustang I saw in photo-etch and there are one or two very early aircraft in 1/72 in p/e and some very fine covering material. You build 'em a bit like balsa planes. I'd not like to predict where computer printed parts would end up though. I don't see the need to change rules in any of the aircraft classes at present. Cars and other vehicles are different. If you allowed only plastic and resin kits in 1/43, you'd rule out almost every F1 model and many older kits too. Sadly, if 1/24th car modellers relied on the plastic producers, there'd be very few historic cars at all and there are hardly any 1/12th historic motorcycle kits around so modellers of those subjects have been very poorly served by the major companies. It just happens that those companies that do serve car modellers well tend to use varying amounts of metal in their kits.
Don't stop scratch-building on account of a bit of metal though, whatever the outcome. We don't all have the skills or aptitude to scratch-build which makes the creations of those that do all the more pleasurable to see.
Best regards Dave
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Post by NoelSmith on Dec 17, 2013 17:06:41 GMT
This is developing into a really healthy debate and a lot of differing views are coming to light.....more opinions from more members please as my proposal needs a good airing whether you are for or against it, or feel that just some of what I propose would be OK albeit in a modified form. Please take on board that my proposal emphatically does NOT propose more classes being created, but simply that more materials be allowed to be used as main structural parts of our models, as sometimes wood or metal actually lends itself better to what you are making or for conversions. Bill made a comment about simply buffing up an aluminium airframe? If that were the case, buffing up Aluminium to attain a scratch free surface that looks to scale is actually a darned site harder to do than using Alclad or whatever on a smooth plastic surface to replicate metal. I do not think that he needs to worry too much about major aluminium parts appearing in kits. However, as a raw material it could lend itself better for a scratch builder or converter to make things from. e.g. A classic car bonnet can be made from thin sheet aluminium and proper louvers cut and formed in it. Much easier than trying to do it with plasticard. Fastcat, you made a good point about class 68 Sailing Ships already being open to any materials, so it will be interesting to see a wooden model or two entered in that class sometime in the future. So come on guys....keep the opinions rolling in so that our Comps Sec can get a good overview of what our members would like.
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perdu
Sprue Cutter
Posts: 34
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Post by perdu on Dec 18, 2013 0:25:21 GMT
I'm pretty good with metal Noel, I was a toolmaker in another life. I love metal. Just not on the table at a Plastic Modeller's competition! I also love the challenges plastic gives me when I use it. I will sit back and watch this one, it isn't a new concept really, but I think asking now is a valid question. I just hope you are in a minority because of my own biases. If you win the day it will be because the Society thinks you are right, good luck. I expect I'm in for the duration now, I'm an old man (set in his ways?)
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Post by NoelSmith on Dec 18, 2013 16:46:56 GMT
Perdu....Sounds like you had to hacksaw and file a square within a square out of gauge plate so that only a 2 thou feeler could go around it as a first exercise! Those were the days when we were apprentices! As far as my proposal goes, one has to accept that you win a few and you lose a few. You wished me luck if I win the day, and that is most gracious of you. I have to accept that my proposal could lose and in that case I would have to concede defeat in a dignified manner also. I accepted at the beginning that my proposal would be controversial, with strong feelings either way. All the posts so far have been lively but importantly kept civil with this being a bit of an emotive subject.
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