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Post by ancient on Oct 11, 2016 9:22:16 GMT
In reply to the last two postings, one who said I was whinging and the other odd disgruntled member. Instead of posting derogatory remarks perhaps these two members would acknowledge, that Iam entitled to an opinion. In practical terms I have never in fact bought any bargains on a Friday, but I have very often purchased hard to get items, as for example a book of which there were only 2 copies, and which a number of my friends have tried to get over the years without success. I do not approach any traders who are not trading on the Friday. I have only bought from traders who are openly trading on the Friday. Again in practical terms I can see maybe the selective ban on Friday but not for the Saturday as ther are virtually no vehicles if any in the halls on a Saturday. I assume the last post in which the member put in his length of membership was meant to impress. Well if it were not for a mistake some years ago in my renewal I would have a lower number than him. Since I also joined ipms in 1962/63. Clive Roberts.
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Post by John Tapsell on Oct 11, 2016 12:17:09 GMT
I think that we're straying away from a fundamental fact - SMW has become so large that it has to be run in the same way that a commercial show is run. Anyone who attends commercial and trade events at major exhibition venues will know that each exhibitor has a limited set-up crew and strictly no visitors are permitted to enter the halls until the show opens.
That means we don't have the level of flexibility that many other model shows might have. More importantly, the Executive Committee, as designated Company Directors (IPMS is a Company Limited by Guarantee), are corporately liable for anything that goes wrong. We make decisions on how to manage the show to protect the Society from undue risk (physical or legal). The law changed a year or two back and liability for the running of the event now rests squarely on our shoulders rather than the venue.
We were advised that there were too many people in the halls outside the official show opening times (ie during times that are considered to be higher risk). It would be negligent of us to ignore that advice because it could negate our insurance policies and put us in breach of contract. We don't like those restrictions any more than you do, but by sticking to the rules and taking advice from the relevant professionals we are able to run a successful event each year.
Regards, John
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darby
Sprue Cutter
Posts: 20
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Post by darby on Oct 11, 2016 18:32:59 GMT
CAN everyone calm the Hell down. The first group of posters were only expressing their concerns about what can be considered in the overall picture of things as minor niggles to their normal Telford weekend. SMW has grown beyond all expectations into the Best this Sad planet has to offer in the form of a model show to best all the rest. Something to be proud of don't you think.
Lawyers for you and the rest of the blood sucking gits that populate our lives are just waiting to take advantage of the first attendee at SMW to make a CLAIM, possibly ending the show. Rules or closure, I take rules anyday.
I have informed all my SIG's and they all understand, no issues, job done.
See you all there:)
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Post by NoelSmith on Oct 13, 2016 15:15:24 GMT
Ancient, I guess that your reference to the last two postings referred to Dave Allen remarking about whingeing and without actually naming me, being the other disgruntled member. Yes I wholeheartedly agree that you are entitled to your opinion, but by the same token, you also have to accept that people have a right to disagree with it! Possibly you may be mistaking my wanting a level playing field for all members with regard to access to traders whilst the show is officially open as being 'disgruntled'. Far from it! I am perfectly happy with buying from traders during the proper show hours, as I would imagine the majority of members are. I was disappointed to learn from your last post that some traders are openly trading out of hours on the Friday evening, as this must surely be outside their remit. However, John Tapsell has already eloquently explained the EC's position with regard to the limits of numbers of personnel and why, for out of hours setting up access with regard to how Health and Safety, Insurance and Legislation affects SMW because of it being on a par with many large commercial shows.
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Post by ancient on Oct 13, 2016 18:35:11 GMT
Yes I cannot agree with you more as far as a level playing field is concerned, but for many years now I have observed others and myself buying on Friday and from 08:00 on Saturday. This is why I posted in the first place, ie to get a level Playing field. The way it is going to be run this year, means that those concerned with set up (ie some members) will have not have to queue and will have a nice relaxing time to look around before the other members and the public get in. I do not want special treatment. I like you want a level playing field. I have an extra reason for dislike of the arrangement this year. Iam nearly 75 and have bad knee I do not want to queue to get in. I want a nice relaxing weekend. If some of the members cannot access the show the usual way ie through the side doors, we will have to queue early. This means that the first in the queue will get in at just gone 09:00, but for some members in the queue they will not get in much before the Public get in. I.P.M.S. used to say that one of the privileges of membership was access to the show 2 hours before the crowds to look around in comfort before the public, and not having to queue. So for some of us these Privileges have been removed, so what is the point in belonging to I.P.M.S.? I myself as a member of the public could save £9. Before someone says the members who get in at 08;00 will be setting up, a lot will have set up on the Friday and therfore will have more than an extra hour to go round the show on Saturday in comfort and without having to contend with the crowds compared with the rest of us, and not have the discomfort of of waiting in line in a queue. This does not seem like a level playing field to me. As I have already said and given my personal reasons for not liking the thought of standing in a queue for some time which is not pleasant, but in addition, I have observed that on a Saturday there are virtually no vehicles if any in the halls, therfore Iam hoping that the committee will reconsider the Saturday/Sunday access and allow every member in at the same time, as I cannot see any reason to restrict access due to safety reasons on Saturday and Sunday, ie a level playing field. Therefore there is no reason to make some of the members queue on the Saturday/Sunday. Clive Roberts.
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Post by John Tapsell on Oct 14, 2016 18:23:48 GMT
Short of preventing all IPMS members from entering the halls before 9.00am on Saturday and paying non-members/contractors to set up the show for us, we can never achieve a 'level playing field'. We rely totally on the volunteers to set up, manage and close down SMW. We also let representatives from each Branch/SIG into the show so that they too can set up their stands. We can argue about how many from each group should be let in, but that doesn't alter the need to restrict the numbers in the halls outside the formal opening times. It's about more than just the vehicles, it's about all the people hauling trolleys, boxes and display items around the halls.
There will ALWAYS be a level of inequality due to the nature of the (unpaid, volunteer) workforce we use and how we set the event up.
Regards, John
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Ant
Kit Basher
Posts: 113
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Post by Ant on Oct 16, 2016 16:03:01 GMT
John, As I mentioned before, you don't need to limit the number of people from each group - you only need to limit the number *in the hall at one time* which a transferrable pass rather than a permanent wristband would achieve, without restricting anyone's opportunity for pre-show set-up.
If you are worried about "all the people hauling trolleys, boxes and display items around the halls" then why force the majority of them into a 1 hour slot, at the same time as general IPMS entry is open? That is making the situation far worse, not better!
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Post by John Tapsell on Oct 16, 2016 22:19:49 GMT
The difficulty with a transferrable pass is policing it effectively and giving everyone a fair amount of time in the halls. We felt it is fairer to allocate a fixed number of places to each group, rather than penalising people because they turn up later in the day (or on Saturday) through no fault of their own.
Once all the passes were issued we'd be faced with large numbers of people milling around outside, waiting for a pass to become free. You know as well as I do that once some people are issued with a pass, they'll stay in the halls until closing time, irrespective of whether they still need to be there or not. We'd spend all our time chasing people to see if they had finished (and what can we do if they say 'no I haven't'?). Therefore we chose to give every group the same level of access.
Scale ModelWorld is a major exhibition event and has to be managed on a professional/commercial basis. It is one of the largest events that the Telford International Centre host and we simply do not have the excuse that just because we're a model show run by volunteers we can ignore the requirements that come with an event of this size.
Our contract, our insurance policies and the law itself, place absolute obligations on us to take responsibility for the safety of everyone in the venue (exhibitors, traders, visitors and even the venue's own staff). We can't pretend we didn't know or that we are somehow exempt and we can't ignore professional advice that tells us we have too many people in the halls outside show opening times.
The obligation to restrict entry won't go away next year or anytime soon. Therefore we need to find a long term solution we can use after 2016. That means Branches and SIGs working with us to find a process that works for all parties and fulfils the same obligations, rather than finding all the reasons it won't work. Those solutions have to be practical, realistic and enforceable.
Restricted exhibitor passes used to be regular thing on Friday and on Saturday morning. We are not introducing a completely new concept. We are reintroducing a control measure that used to be considered normal and is now required again.
Regards, John
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Ant
Kit Basher
Posts: 113
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Post by Ant on Oct 17, 2016 9:15:04 GMT
Thanks for the response John.
My view - The society has the legal obligation to limit the number of people in the hall - this they can do with a fixed number of passes. How those passes are then used and passed on is entirely the responsibility of the SIG/Branches and their members. If a member is hogging a pass and preventing other members of that group from setting up, it's down to the group to resolve - after all the whole point is to get the entire group display set up. The society has met their obligation in ensuring an instantaneous cap. Whether someone is in the hall longer than absolutely necessary is not the issue here, and a permanent pass will do nothing to address that anyway. If anything it will encourage those with a golden ticket to linger and "make the most" of it.
Allocating a fixed number of (individual) passes regardless of the group size cannot really be considered "fair" when smaller groups with smaller displays may have passes they don't need and larger groups with larger displays which logically require more set up time don't have enough passes to do the job effectively.
I fully appreciate that there is an obligation to do something, but this really does not sound like it is it. Comparisons are drawn with professional/commercial shows, but the committee must appreciate SMW is by its very nature nothing like a commercial show due to the entirely different staffing model (no pun intended) and never will be. If you create a system that gets in the way of how the show operates, then exhibitors will simply stop coming.
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Post by John Tapsell on Oct 17, 2016 12:21:04 GMT
Ant,
Good points - if we'd had time to develop a comprehensive solution we'd have done so. With just about three months notice we've had to put a rapid solution in place for 2016, knowing it would be unpopular and that Branches and SIGs wouldn't be prepared for the changes at short notice, but having no choice in the matter. That's why we can't realistically change the process for 2016 but can look at more considered options for 2017 and beyond.
As a 'Company Limited by Guarantee' IPMS (UK) does not have the luxury of treating the show as anything other than a commercial event. The EC (as Company Directors) are corporately liable for anything and everything that happens at SMW. It's unlikely we'd be able to hire any large exhibition venue in the UK if we did not sign a contract that required us to operate in a professional and commercial way.
It doesn't matter how the members perceive the show, the commercial and legal world classify SMW as a major event, subject to the necessary Regulations and legal obligations. We can't pretend they don't apply to us - it's not our decision to make.
Regards, John
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Post by keefr22 on Oct 19, 2016 9:59:32 GMT
Ant, Good points - if we'd had time to develop a comprehensive solution we'd have done so. With just about three months notice we've had to put a rapid solution in place for 2016, I think John, that the majority of members will see Ant's solution as perfectly fair & reasonable. Now, if maybe you'd mentioned the problem to the membership three months ago, Ant might have been able to put his eminently sensible & workable solution to the committee & you would have had -"Branches and SIGs working with us to find a process that works for all parties and fulfils the same obligations, rather than finding all the reasons it won't work. Those solutions have to be practical, realistic and enforceable." Anyway, I'd promised myself I'd stay quiet on this matter as I'm not too bothered about getting entry for set up as I'm just not going to bring any models for our branch display this year (or any following years if this set up method remains!), however a point mentioned by Ancient has raised a concern with me, ie having to queue on Saturday. I remember the ridiculous arrangement of zig zag rope barriers that we had to negotiate last year after having found the side door closed to members (earlier than it should have been IIRC, but willing to accept that might be incorrect), & whilst I accept their need for paying members of the public I don't see it as being a benefit to IPMS paid up members! I'm disabled, & whilst I can walk & stand for short periods the effort of walking all the unnecessary distance through those barriers & also standing for periods whilst waiting for those ahead to get through meant I had to sit & recover for over two hours before I was fit to move again! So, could I ask, is there any chance of a dedicated 'straight through' disabled lane - or if that's seen as 'discriminatory' a straight through members only lane? Also, I'd thought I'd read somewhere that non set up members could get their 'normal' entry wristbands on Friday? However, I can't see where I read that now, so can you confirm whether or not that is the case? If it isn't, I can see it's likely going to be pandemonium in the foyer on Saturday morning.... ATB Keith
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Post by John Tapsell on Oct 19, 2016 12:32:42 GMT
Keith,
We let members know as soon as we were able to - the magazine is the only universal (in theory) communication tool that reaches all members. Unfortunately we didn't have the time to wait for membership reaction before we could think through a solution, design a process to achieve it, get it approved by the venue and put all the necessary logistics in place. It's meant re-designing the floor layout in places and relocating the registration desks to make the new process work - and that's not something you can do overnight. If it was just a case of getting a different wristband printed, it would have been easy. Yes there is a dedicated members-only entry lane - just as there was last year. It runs along the wall closest to the halls. The zig-zag entry was for non-members so you shouldn't have been directed to that route. There is no dedicated disabled entry route but having said that, we'll accommodate any specific requirements wherever possible - just ask.
The side door closes at 8.45am and the front doors open at 9.00am (or as soon after that time as the venue are satisfied it's safe to do so).
Members should be able to pick up their standard entry wristbands from the registration desk on Friday afternoon as far as I'm aware and there will be a wristband issue desk in the foyer on Saturday morning, opening about 8.30-ish I think - just as there was last year.
Regards, John
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Post by keefr22 on Oct 19, 2016 17:06:31 GMT
Many thanks for the reply John, much appreciated.
Keith
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Post by keefr22 on Nov 2, 2016 16:15:06 GMT
Hello again John my apologies for being a nuisance, but would you please check the info you provided in your last reply to me, as it appears to be at variance with what is stated in the latest issue of the magazine.
Firstly, you stated "Yes there is a dedicated members-only entry lane - just as there was last year. It runs along the wall closest to the halls. The zig-zag entry was for non-members so you shouldn't have been directed to that route."
However, Richard in his pre-show report in the magazine states "As you come down to the end of the foyer, you will see the IPMS(UK) desk for the issue of wristbands....Further down the foyer, the entrance will be laned off with barriers as per last year, as this worked exceedingly well from an operational point of view. Once you pass through the public payment desks...." Therefore, unless I'm reading it incorrectly, IPMS members with non set up wristbands will have to negotiate the barrier system and hence gain entry to the hall through the public payment desks. Operationally it might have worked exceedingly well, I can assure Richard that personally it's a major pain. Can you please confirm whether my interpretation is correct & if it is whether, what you also stated, namely "There is no dedicated disabled entry route but having said that, we'll accommodate any specific requirements wherever possible - just ask." will be accepted. Therefore if I (& any other disabled person) asks to be permitted to enter without negotiating the barriers, that request will be met?
Secondly, regarding the issue of non set up wristbands you stated that you believed that "Members should be able to pick up their standard entry wristbands from the registration desk on Friday afternoon as far as I'm aware and there will be a wristband issue desk in the foyer on Saturday morning, opening about 8.30-ish I think - just as there was last year."
However, I can find nothing in the latest magazine that suggests anything other than IPMS members without set up wristbands will not be able to register & pick up a normal wristband before 9am on Saturday. If this is indeed the case & given that I would suspect that there will be more IPMS members without set up wristbands than there are with, that some of us will have very little benefit of early entry to SMW this year. Once again, can you confirm that my understanding of the issue of 'normal entry' wristbands is correct?
If you would rather I direct my queries to Richard directly, I am happy to do so, but I hesitated to do so first off as I would think he's fairly busy at the moment.
Best regards
Keith
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Post by John Tapsell on Nov 2, 2016 23:05:00 GMT
Hi Keith,
Yes there will be a barrier system but as far as I'm aware the 'zig-zag' bit is only for non-members - IPMS members will queue along the wall as I stated. If I'm wrong, then please request assistance on the day and we will ensure you can use the most appropriate entry route for your needs.
With regard to wristbands, we are definitely distributing them well before 9.00am in the foyer on Saturday as we did last year. Abi Brewin is actively planning on doing the same this year and we already have the desk location sorted out and volunteers to run it.
Likewise, we'll be selling public tickets in the foyer from around 9.30-ish - again, it worked really well last year and we will do it again this year.
Regards, John
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