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Post by NoelSmith on Feb 15, 2011 17:49:39 GMT
A message to all Civilian Vehicles Judges. This is aimed a judges at Local Level and Club Shows. It has come to my notice that one or two instances have occurred where ready built, high quality die cast models have been entered and unknowingly judged against modellers efforts who actually built from a kit within the same class. Please look out for 1/18th and 1/43rd scale cars especially and also 1/12th scale motor bikes. Basically, if they feel heavy check them out for manufacturers marks such as CMC and AutoArt underneath for example. Please keep any eye open for and expose these 'Cheque Book Modelling Cheats' for what they are if any such models are entered into competitions.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2011 19:12:38 GMT
Noel, are you seriously suggesting that judges cannot tell the difference between a commercial die-cast model and a kit?
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Post by fastcat on Feb 16, 2011 18:12:24 GMT
I think the problem lies mainly with 1/43 "die-casts". Nowadays, most of these aren't actually die-cast but are resin moulded, similar to resin kits. The standard of finish and general finesse is much superior to older traditional die-casts. They also use p/e and weight for weight are the same as a resin kit.
If you've no experience of resin kits they're hard to tell apart. In fact, I've got a resin "die-cast" of a TVR Tuscan race-car which is far superior to the Provence Moulage kit in terms of accuracy and markings. I intend to strip it and rebuild it using the PM's detail bits and decals. If I didn't declare its origin in a competition, how could you tell? Dave
PS, What about factory builts? I fix all of my models to a base so it's not possible to see underneath. A factory built kit is assembled from the kit parts and is effectively an out of the box build and impossible to tell from a modellers own work. I can't for the life of me understand why any normal person would want to do this, other than to have a laugh at the judges expense but then I don't understand why people hack computers and create virus's either.
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Post by NoelSmith on Feb 25, 2011 17:31:55 GMT
Hi Nick I have been told that it has happened on a couple of occassions already. From what I gather one actually got judged in a local competition and at another show fortunately, the culprit got disqualified. I could'nt believe that I was hearing this at first either, so I placed the post for general awareness, as often judges are 'roped in' on the day at local shows, and no body is infallible. It was not my intention to 'knock' local judges who do clubs a big favour at their shows by sacrificing a large chunk of their day to help out. Basically, to get this into perspective my thread is against the cheats who would try to enter competitions with such models and for due vigilance against them generally. Naturally, this sort of thing would not get anywhere near the table at National level, however.
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Post by Julien on Oct 23, 2011 23:50:54 GMT
Thanks for the heads up as I normally judge these.
i would like to think i could spot a commecial die cast but I will keep my eyes a bit more open.
It can never hurt to have info like this out in the public domain.
Julien
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Post by hazmod on Nov 24, 2013 10:53:09 GMT
Bad things for die cast pieces at competition, I know it 1/12 scale, Tamiya, Formula 1 cars on 1990's with all die cast suspensions, always allowed to competition and good results Tamiya has had die cast chassis floor with 1/24 scale, Nissan Z fair lady sports cars and Peugeot 307CC rally on 2005-06 I do n't think it Define, competitor has cheat with his 1/43 scale, Die Cast model car at competition, blind eye! If competitor must ensured to competition secretary over metal pieces with evidence images Warned, all die cast model cars would n't allowed enter to competition
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MikeC
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Too many SIGs for my own good!
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Post by MikeC on Nov 25, 2013 6:58:14 GMT
A fair warning; but just out of interest I have a car kit which is a regular plastic kit, but has a die-cast chassis. It's Tamiya's 1:48 US Staff Car kit. I've seen a couple of their 1:48 tank kits with a die-cast chassis as well, but not every such kit has it, for example their 1:48 Citroen "Traction Avant". I know next to nothing about car kits, so I don't know how common this is, but apart from a die-cast chassis instead of a regular plastic one, it's a plastic kit - builds up very nicely btw. But if I were inclined to enter it in a competition it would fail the weight test. So my question is, are die-cast chassis coming into the market, or is this feature peculiar to some of the Tamiya 1:48 range?
Incidentally, if anyone thinks I've really flipped, gone "off-subject" and started building stuff other than aircraft, the staff car kit came in a box with a P-51; it and the Citroen are both "base dressing" for suitable aeroplanes. :-)
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Post by hazmod on Nov 25, 2013 7:34:58 GMT
Judges will feel lift die cast pieces of chassis floor with Nissan Z fairlady or Peugeot 307 CC, with weight as I has feel lift weight my Peugeot 307 CC with unfinished build.( my work progress for Peugeot 307CC at F-1 and Motorsport Sig forum on here) Tamiya, F1 racing car (1990's) has supplied die cast suspension from factory I agreed MikeC over failed weight with die cast pieces hide with model cars, as should be competition stewards will checked weight with model cars, like Stewards checked 1/1 racing F1 cars for weight on every Grand Prix. I know it, bad things for die cast pieces still hide with model cars, for competition. Competitor who enters his Peugeot 307 CC at South Cheshire Model Militaire Show 2008, for open competition with free regulations. Competitor who has break this Nationals competition regulations for die cast pieces with his model car Watch!
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Post by fastcat on Nov 25, 2013 10:59:14 GMT
Hi Mike, This is an old thread but with the proliferation of resin ready-builts is still relevant. Also Many kit makers are using alternative methods to cut costs these days and simple plastic kits are being replaced by what amounts to multi-media kits. Your example reminds me of the old Gunze-Sangyo car kits which also had diecast chassis. I've seen their Ferrari 250GTO in competitions in the past but as they produced "low-tech" versions of their kits without the metal, who's to say which is which. As I always attach my models to a base, the weight test isn't any guide. Also, some 1/24th. resin kits use heavy cast metal base-plates. I sometimes replace this with plastic or aluminium. I used plastic on my K&R C type Jaguar but as it was almost solid resin, it still weighed a ton! Would the original kit base-plate have made it ineligible to enter? Some resin kits also have a very high metal content anyway. I'm thinking of Model Factory Hiro stuff in particular.
The competition rules state that metal may be used but it "must be cosmetic and not structural". I'm sure a base-plate or chassis would be deemed as structural.
I think this is a really difficult thing to enforce. In the example of my C Type, it would be impossible to tell if metal had been used without comparing it to a factory kit and the weight of the base negated that anyway, ditto Gunze kits. And would every judge be aware of the contents of every kit? Monogram's original Jaguar XK120 featured a die-cast body, later Revell versions of the same kit were made of plastic. You have to have been there to know that!
Maybe Tony needs to have a look at this aspect of the rules. To my mind unless the metal parts are on show as in the main shell of the car, it doesn't matter very much what goes on under the skin. Regards Dave
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2013 12:21:59 GMT
Just to add to the thread, the old Ertl 1/25 Volvo N10 kit from the 70's had a metal chassis: link
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Post by NoelSmith on Nov 25, 2013 18:21:58 GMT
Interesting that this topic has raised itself again for discussion. Perhaps, taking into account the different ways that kits are made these days, IPMS should review the competition rules. With the proliferation of Multi Medium Kits and die cast parts appearing in mainstream kits maybe we should not be so hidebound to plastic. Most Multi Medium kits have the majority of their parts in resin, that is technically a plastic. Some time ago I built a Hubley kit of a Duesenberg SJ Phaeton car. The main body and chassis were die cast and the rest of the kit was in injection moulded plastic. Essentially this hybrid kit went together in a similar fashion to a plastic kit, but as the main parts were unpainted die cast bits, it was ineligible to enter IPMS comps. Our premier show is named Scale Modelworld not Scale Plastic Modelworld. Why? We also advertise ourselves as 'the society for scale modellers', not 'the society for plastic scale modellers'. Again, why? Would the inclusion of the word plastic in these headings be seen to make us look inferior to any other modelling groups like model engineers and railway modellers? From a modelling point of view I see any material that lends itself better to obtaining a better finished result as being fair game to use. Maybe IPMS should be renamed ISMS (International Scale Modellers Society), but I appreciate that this has been suggested before and becomes a bit of a can of worms.
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Post by fastcat on Nov 25, 2013 20:01:45 GMT
I remember the Volvo kit as I had one many years back.
In fact many modern kits (and I'm thinking Model Factory Hiro) have the vast majority of their parts in metal. I think their Ferrari BB512 has a body centre section in resin and the nose and tail in metal, a real hybrid. I think many more of their kits have a similar make-up. Given that the excellent Lotus turbine in this years show was from MFH, they have a presence and how can any judge differentiate between them regarding their metal versus resin content.
One of the stumbling blocks is that this feature of kits is mostly limited to vehicles which don't form the majority of models in any competition. Aircraft tend to have a small percentage of metal in their construction so we could end up with two very different sets of rules. I don't see any harm in this as it self regulates to an extent, ie you build models from whatever they're kitted in but even then, the edges are blurred. There's wooden kits for instance!
I can't see aircraft modellers, who after all make up by far the majority of IPMS membership, wanting to alter things to accommodate a minority interest however sensible the suggestion. Still needs looking at though!
Dave
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edgar
Kit Basher
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Post by edgar on Nov 26, 2013 9:40:13 GMT
Our premier show is named Scale Modelworld not Scale Plastic Modelworld. Why? We also advertise ourselves as 'the society for scale modellers', not 'the society for plastic scale modellers'. Again, why? Would the inclusion of the word plastic in these headings be seen to make us look inferior to any other modelling groups like model engineers and railway modellers? From a modelling point of view I see any material that lends itself better to obtaining a better finished result as being fair game to use. Maybe IPMS should be renamed ISMS (International Scale Modellers Society), but I appreciate that this has been suggested before and becomes a bit of a can of worms. If you had been involved in model exhibitions in the 1960s/70s, and seen how builders of plastic models were looked down on by model "engineers," you wouldn't ask such questions. When MAP ran the Model Engineers Exhibition, I was invited to some committee meetings, and the thinly-veiled animosity from the engineering fraternity was quite staggering; when MAP sold out to Nexus, and the (plastic model-building) exhibition manager left, plastic modelling (and model railways) were ditched, and the M.E.E. foundered very quickly. Plastic was (and still is, in some quarters) seen as a "cheap and nasty" product, and the I.P.M.S. was (and still is) able to show the world how superb models can be achieved, without the need for a workshop filled with massively expensive machinery, but simply using hand skills, and easily accessible materials. Scale Modelworld and the Society's motto don't contain the word "plastic" because the Society (rightly) feels that it has "arrived" as an entity, and no longer feels the need to explain (even apologise for) its use of inferior materials. Longstanding members of the I.P.M.S. are (justifiably) proud of how they've helped the industry through the last 50 years, and feel that this incessant talk of tinkering with this, that, or something else, solely for cosmetic purposes, would be a betrayal of those early Members, who had the necessary vision to get things started. Edgar
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Post by fastcat on Nov 26, 2013 10:29:30 GMT
That's still true to some extent today Edgar. Modelling snobbery will always exist and as a modeller for nearly 60 years I well remember the attitude of model engineers to plastic kit builders.
My main interest has long been race cars and bikes and I have a number of 1/43 kits, an area of intense snobbery. The owner of a large outlet for these kits (still in existence) once said that he would never deal in plastic models or diecasts. They do now!
I don't think we should tinker with the name of the Society, it is what it is. I do however think that just as the Society has evolved and is a far cry from those early days, the rules and definitions within the Society also have to evolve. Kit makers haven't stood still and the Society should reflect that. When the "out of the box" rules were made, no-one envisaged kits containing p/e and resin. That's not unusual now. It's also possible that computer printed models and multi media kits will take over while purely injection moulded subjects continue to decline. I think the Society needs to reflect the shifting model scene and evolve with it.
Best regards Dave
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Post by hazmod on Nov 26, 2013 11:10:38 GMT
Competitor never told secretary over die cast floor with his model car, Luis Gil Gimeno who enter his Nissan Impul Z at competition for SMW 2011, and He won his gold with his Nissan Impul Z. What is judges were blind eye over his model Impul Z If I enter my Nissan Impul Z on competition at SMW ? I will ensured competition secretary over die cast floor with this Tamiya, Impul Z sports car I will see and wait Luis Gil Gimeno has break the competition regulation over die cast floor has fit his model Impul Z , Noel who judging any model cars at SMW competition What is point with hide die cast pieces fitted with plastic model car. I views my three Tamiya, 1/12 scale F-1 cars (1990) with all die cast suspensions sets, but good results I has told competition secretary over Model Hiro Factory metal chassis and I send my images with metal chassis for evidence. I was withdrawn it I never build this metal chassis with resin body F-1 car on this year.I will careful views this metal pieces or die cast supplied from factory. I have build my Peugeot 307 CC with die cast floor fitted it, you have see my images for my work progress about Peugeot 307CC with this die cast piece on here on forum What is views points Tamiya has supplied with die cast pieces with Nissan Impul Zs, Peugeot 307 CC and 1/48 scale, Citroen staff car kit. I has my Rosso, 1/43 Scale, Ferrari F643, It was die cast Chassis from factory, what is you view my Ferrari at Scottish Nationals scale model show 2012, with received my high Commended and I has received my commended with Ferrari F643 at IPMS Avon model show 2008, with free open competition What you views this points Judges always scratching all heads Attachments:
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