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Post by haggis on Oct 10, 2013 16:51:02 GMT
This may sound controversial but I have a suggestion. I think judges should bring a model along to display on a separate table in order to show they are qualified to be a judge. Euromilitaire does it and I think that gives the competition as a whole more credibility as models are judged by the elite.
There will always be controversies in a competition as at the end of the day it's down to a subjective opinion. However I don't think it's right that someone who isn't a particularly skilled modeller is able to make the sort of decisions required in this competition. Being judged by the elite adds kudos to any award.
I think the trophies are completely different though as that part of the competition has a different aim.
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Post by phantomdriver on Oct 10, 2013 17:51:03 GMT
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Post by bluebell on Oct 11, 2013 14:47:18 GMT
I've been judging for the last 10 or so years and would be quite happy to bring along a sample of my handiwork or, preferably, a selection of trophies and golds previously won. The trouble with this suggestion is that the 'elite' are not all going to be willing to give up the substantial amount of time that judging takes up whilst at Scalemodelworld. A good judge can tell whether a model is of the required standard without necessarily being able to produce one of that standard.
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Post by haggis on Oct 11, 2013 19:03:22 GMT
We'll have to disagree on the credibility issue. How can someone judge something that is above his own skill level? In my opinion that completely erodes the credibility of the competition if enthusiastic amateurs are dishing out awards, it makes no sense.
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Post by phantomdriver on Oct 11, 2013 20:41:36 GMT
good point................
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Post by John Tapsell on Oct 12, 2013 8:29:22 GMT
Are we not ALL enthusiastic amateurs?
Having been involved in organising the SMW competition and also judging for many years, I have to disagree with you. I know of excellent judges who, by their own admission, would not be able to build models to a 'competition' standard. As long as they understand the methods, the processess and the outcomes and can assess objectively to what extent they have been achieved, I see no reason why they can't judge at the highest level.
Similarly, the best modellers do not always make the best judges. They can sometimes be too wrapped up in their own preferred methods and styles to assess a range of models in a class objectively.
Competition judging is always an emotive subject - I could name shows where the judging is carried out by teams of 'expert' modellers and yet every year we STILL get complaints about the standard of the judging at those events. It is the nature of competition. There is no obligation for anyone to enter a competition. By doing so a modeller accepts that they will be judged by a selection of their fellow modellers who may, or may not, appreciate their efforts. If they aren't prepared to take that risk, the easiest solution is not to put themselves through the process.
Regards, John
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Post by fastcat on Oct 12, 2013 9:55:13 GMT
I think that the idea that you can't recognise a good model unless you're an expert modeller yourself is fatally flawed! Every entry to a competition is judged by your peers, ie your fellow modellers, expert or otherwise and that's how it should be.
I've regularly attended SMW over many years and I can usually pick the medal winners out in most classes, even in genres that I've never modelled in. I agree with John, experts don't always make the best judges for the reasons he stated. Personally I think it's a bit of modelling snobbery to say that judges decisions are only valid if they're experts. Like music snobbery and art snobbery. Whilst I've not judged at SMW, I have judged at local level and to be honest, it's a thankless task. And to be honest, I'd be extremely annoyed if I had to cart around my models and box of medals to prove my credentials. Every year, the question of the quality of judging is raised usually because the posters disagree with the results (or didn't win when they thought they should) and every year as the number and quality of entries rise it becomes harder to find judges willing to give up hours of their time. If you don't like the process, there's no obligation to enter. We can all dream up ways of "improving" things but sometimes reality gets in the way. Regards Dave
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Post by seb on Oct 12, 2013 10:45:06 GMT
I totally agree with John Tapsell and fastcat. Besides, who should judge the juror's "qualification-works"? You'd just open another can of worms. Seb
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Post by tony on Oct 12, 2013 19:50:35 GMT
It seems that the annual judge bashing has started early, it is normally after the event that this happens. So let’s deal with the points that Haggis is making. ‘ I think judges should bring a model along to display on a separate table in order to show they are qualified to be a judge’ ScaleModel World judges are all previous class winners and or national champions. They are all experts in their particular field so their models have been seen before and they have the honours to prove that. Also you can see their models on display at ScaleModel World as they are branch members and or SIG members and have models on their respective tables at the show.
‘How can someone judge something that is above his own skill level? This is not the case. Of the 60-70 judges that are available for ScaleModel world they have the knowledge and definitely the experience for this event. The majority of the judging team have been doing the judging at ScaleModel world long before I have been competition secretary and they have the experience to judge this event. So their credentials are second to none.
So these enthusiastic amateurs have the skills and knowledge to carry out the thankless task of judging at ScaleModel world.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2013 21:38:48 GMT
For those who regularly have a go at judge bashing I have a suggestion, put your name forward and let's see how you go about judging some of the best models in the world, so long as you're competent and know what you're talking about. All judges are volunteers and go about the business of judging without favour. There's also another comment, if you like your model that's fine, but once you place it on the competition table someone is going make a comment about it, good or bad, if you're not big enough to take the comments, then leave the model at home on the shelf. Look what happened last year with the Senior 'Best of Show, stunning model from a talented modeller, but there were some who disagree with the outcome. We're all entitled to a comment but if you think you can do better?
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chrismac60
Sprue Cutter
IPMS Farnborough
Posts: 15
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Post by chrismac60 on Oct 13, 2013 8:52:45 GMT
The only person I need to prove I am worthy to be a judge to is the Competition Sec. If he's not happy I am a competent person to judge, he wouldn't have asked me or he would have sacked me!
I don’t feel the need to display my models in magazines, although I do share them with Locate and Cement members and sometimes BM, that doesn’t make me any worse or better a modeller than anyone who does or doesn’t. Maybe if you are really that tense about the judging team you could go through the back issues of the IPMS magazines and see what class’s they have won in the past at SMW or use google. Me I’ll leave it to the Comp’ Sec, that’s his job, while l’ll get on with some modelling.
Some may say ‘one is getting their excuses in early’ but not me.........................................
Chris
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MikeC
Moderator
Too many SIGs for my own good!
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Post by MikeC on Oct 13, 2013 9:56:26 GMT
"You may abuse a tragedy, though you cannot write one. You may scold a carpenter who has made you a bad table, though you cannot make a table. It is not your trade to make tables. " - Samuel Johnson (1709 - 1784)
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Post by martinhale on Oct 13, 2013 11:56:52 GMT
During my twenty seven years in the Society, I Have been involved in the competition in all areas at one time or another and can honestly say that I have only ever once come across what I would term a bad judge. I have on the other hand come across plenty of bad competitors, by which I mean those who cannot accept a result they do not like with good grace and proceed to blame the judges. Competitors have to be prepared to lose as well as win.
We also have to consider that a Competition Secretary has to work with the people he can get, not necessarily the dream team he might like to have. I know from personal experience that it is hard enough to get enough judges for the competition and I am sure Tony has the same problem as I had when I occupied the hot seat. I am concerned that if judge bashing continues we could reach the point that it might not be possible to run the event at all in it's present form. After all, the judges are giving up a substantial chunk of their Saturday and some of them may well only be at the show for the one day. I personally know of cases where judges have said that they do not need to be doing this anymore, just to get a load of hassle at the end of things.
We also need to remember that building competition winning models and judging them are two completely different skills and not everyone possess both of them.
I could not say so when I was Competition Secretary, but,in my experience, those who complain the longest and loudest are usually those who contribute the least. It made me sick then and it makes me sick now!
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Post by rgriffs on Oct 13, 2013 14:54:20 GMT
if it bothers and upsets so much, why give yourself a hard time, do neither entering or judging. just show off your handiwork on a display area. it may be a great hobby, but that is what it is. don't forget the 'enjoyable' bit. rant over.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2013 19:16:51 GMT
if it bothers and upsets so much, why give yourself a hard time, do neither entering or judging. just show off your handiwork on a display area. it may be a great hobby, but that is what it is. don't forget the 'enjoyable' bit. rant over. I think the point Martin was attempting to make is that there are some members of this society who have become professional whingers yet they contribute nothing of value to the society. I have judged in the past and will do so again should I be asked. I would repeat my initial post, if someone feels that the judging is not up to standard then that person should offer their services.
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