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Post by Rob Monfea on Oct 14, 2013 21:32:47 GMT
Personally, I think a judges modelling skills are largely irrelevant. Surely it is their familiarity with the subject matter being modelled that is key? Someone who has worked in and around aircraft/ships/cars their entire working life is far more likely to be able to spot an issue with a finished model than someone who has merely built a lot of kits. Probably a bad example, but how many art critics paintings do you see in the National Gallery? Not many, but it doesn't mean they are unable to judge the quality of an artwork.
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darby
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Post by darby on Oct 14, 2013 23:08:30 GMT
I have judged at many shows but never SMW. Have I ever been moaned at, yes. Do I still put my self forward, Yes. Do I enjoy it, Yes. Those who moan should try it themselves first.
I have to fight tooth and nail every year to get time off from work to attend the best model show on earth, I have a crappy job on crappy pay and look forward to my time spent modelling, meeting other like minded people and making new friends. It's a hobby/past time not life, I wish people would just chill out and enjoy,
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Post by modlad67 on Oct 16, 2013 17:53:56 GMT
I have been modelling since i was old enough to pop along to my local R. S McColls and placing my 33 and a half pence on the counter and eagerly wait for the assistant to gimme my much coveted Matchbox Mig 21. However i only started entering models in shows at both regional and national events over the last 16 years and even though i have won the odd award ( and cried when i didn't) i feel qualified to throw my hat into the debate regarding judging. WHO CARE'S!!!!!!! IT'S A HOBBY!!!!!!! And if your qualified to judge or not, whether your being subjective or not or you just plain like the way a model looks and been put together then that's all that's required. Remember, what you judge to be right, someone may find wrong and vice versa, however if you come away from a show with the knowledge that you at least took part and there was a lot who haven't then award or not, you have shown commitment to your hobby and support to all those who have taken the time and effort to put the show on. Ta. Sorry long winded but had to get that off my chest.
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Post by fastcat on Oct 16, 2013 19:10:56 GMT
Hi modlad, Like you I've been modelling for aeons (or so it seems) only for me it was handing over two bob to one of the ladies behind a Woolies counter for one of Airfix's earliest kits. It's over 55 years now and it would annoy the hell out of me to have to bring along a competition winner just to satisfy some sad entrant's hang-up about judges.
I entered my first competition back in the Stoneleigh days and it never occurred to me back then to question a judges right to his opinion (for that's all it is after all). I entered for the fun of it and I enjoyed it when I won and applauded others when they were successful. People still make better models than me and always will but like you say, it's a hobby! Unfortunately some folks take their hobby and themselves far too seriously for their own good. Maybe they should lighten up a little, get out more often.................perhaps even enjoy their hobby!
Bestest Dave
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perdu
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Post by perdu on Oct 16, 2013 21:23:50 GMT
Hi modlad, Like you I've been modelling for aeons (or so it seems) only for me it was handing over two bob to one of the ladies behind a Woolies counter for one of Airfix's earliest kits. It's over 55 years now and it would annoy the hell out of me to have to bring along a competition winner just to satisfy some sad entrant's hang-up about judges. I entered my first competition back in the Stoneleigh days and it never occurred to me back then to question a judges right to his opinion (for that's all it is after all). I entered for the fun of it and I enjoyed it when I won and applauded others when they were successful. People still make better models than me and always will but like you say, it's a hobby! Unfortunately some folks take their hobby and themselves far too seriously for their own good. Maybe they should lighten up a little, get out more often.................perhaps even enjoy their hobby! Bestest Dave I could have written this And I agree with every word, I expect we've all been upset, disappointed and just plain homicidal when we DIDN'T win with an entry but blimey, it is ONLY a game. We all love the game of course but judges having to show credibility, is just nonsense. I can decide whether a model looks right even if I cannot even start to make such a model. Steam punk? I wouldn't know where to start but blimey, wasn't last years champ a superb tour de force? No, I say leave the PBJs alone and let them get on with a sometimes thankless task. And thank them for it!
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Post by modlad67 on Oct 17, 2013 15:03:50 GMT
Hi Guys, Nice to have someone agree with me for once!!!!! Not sure if your both going to SMW this year but when i leave the show, win lose or draw, i will be happy in the knowledge i have shown support for the show and all who organize it. If you are going, then the very best of luck to you both.!!!!! Ta.
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Post by haggis on Oct 18, 2013 8:48:26 GMT
First off; I don't "feel the need" to publish my models in magazines. I do it because I enjoy seeing my work in print and hopefully inform and inspire the readership.
Secondly, it doesn't "upset me so much". People making assumptions on my emotional state annoys me. I don't mind people misunderstanding my motives, that's fine, hopefully this post will clear some things up. All I want is this competition to be held in the same regard as a competition such as Euromilitaire. One day I hope a Gold in an armour class at SMW will be equally as prestigious as a Gold in that competition or others in Europe (and yes, I know Euromilitaire has its issues and is possible not what it once was). I'd love Europe's elite armour modellers to attend SMW, so far those that I have met over my travels, none of them have neither heard of SMW or are not that interested. It's not that I am having a go, I only want to make the competiton better.
The above paragraph only mentions armour, this is because the SMW aircraft classes already have reached a level that does attract some of Europe's best. My original post should have mentioned this.
My whole argument (I hate that word) is driven by my experience as a judge a few years ago. I was paired up with a gentleman who stated he was a highly experienced judge as he had been judging Air Cadet competitions for some 15 years; that set off the first alarm bells. We then spent 45 minutes judging an aircraft class which had 2 entries, one which was clearly far and a way much superior than the other. Having spent all this time in minute detail going through all the separate categories, in this bloke's assessment they were equal.......! For the record, this class could have been judged in literally 2 minutes. I do not believe this chap was a previous Gold or class winner. I guess that kind of contradicts my paragraph above but I hope you understand why I mention it.
Next up was towed artillery pieces (we were asked to judge this as Tony was short on judges, I was initially reluctant as I felt I had no credibility doing this having never built a model in this genre let alone won a gong, but then there was no one else to do it). Immediately he pointed out the Gold medal winner, a dark green Soviet piece. The reason he pointed this one out was it had been dry brushed, with white!!!!!!!!!, and "dry brushing is a very advanced technique"! Even to my [towed artillery piece] untrained eye I knew this was all wrong!
That paragraph above sums up my argument and my desire to improve things. As I have said before, my motives are simply to raise the bar, to get the SMW armour competition to the same level as Euromilitaire, KMK, AMT Torrent and the other high profile European competitions and attract Europe's best AFV modellers. I don't see why I should be criticised for that?
Once again, I have volunteered my services as a judge, this time both aircraft and AFVs. AFVs because I feel I now have the credibility having won Gold on the continent in a prestigious competition, an award at Euromilitaire this year and had some AFV models published in well regarded magazines.
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Post by fastcat on Oct 18, 2013 10:24:59 GMT
Hi Haggis, I don't think your motives are in question, it's more a case of the reality of your proposal. In what way would the situation have been altered if your co-judge had bought along one of his own models? He could have been a wonderful modeller and still reacted in an identical way. Folks who specialise can be some of the worst nit-pickers in their own genre. On another forum, I saw one of the entrants criticising a judge because the load-out on a particular model was wrong and the judge was clearly incompetent because he'd not noticed. What a great judge he'd make! On one type of aircraft only!!
People are people and in a show such as SMW, it takes all sorts. It's like asking the judges for feedback. If judges had to give up even more of their own time just to argue with every entrant who didn't do as well as they'd expected ( because that's what would inevitably happen), there'd soon be a shortage of volunteers.
I've been in exactly the same situation as you. It's just life!
Dave
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Post by NoelSmith on Oct 18, 2013 19:18:19 GMT
The late, great Tony Woollett who many of our members remember with great affection made this philosophical comment; ALWAYS REMEMBER THAT WHEN YOU REMOVE YOUR MODEL FROM THE COMPETITION TABLE, NO MATTER HOW IT WAS JUDGED, IT WILL BE NO BETTER OR NO WORSE THAN WHEN YOU FIRST PLACED IT THERE. The point Tony was making at the time was that Judging has and always will be subjective. I enjoy placing models into competitions, and it is nice to get the occasional winner or place. But I don't lose any sleep if my model turns out to be an also ran in the judges eyes. It is there on the table and if any one finds it interesting enough to look at, that is fine by me. One of my other pleasures is writing magazine articles about modelling. It is about sharing experience for me, so if any other modeller picks up a tip or learns a technique that is new to them from my articles, then that is what the article is all about. I got the feeling that modeller/article writers were being knocked a bit unfairly in an earlier post.
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Post by John Tapsell on Oct 19, 2013 21:52:43 GMT
I suppose it depends on how you judge a show - In 2012 SMW attracted at least 400 overseas IPMS visitors - that figure doesn't include non-IPMS overseas visitors who attended as paying customers. Those IPMS visitors are arriving from some 20 nations worldwide.
Those guys wouldn't be travelling hundreds (often thousands) of miles to Telford if they didn't think the show was of a suitable standard to sit upon the world stage. Neither would we be attracting the range of overseas traders that we are if our show wasn't considered to be worthy of attending.
For comparison, 2,100 IPMS (UK) Members attended, along with around 5,500 paying visitors.
If the Scale ModelWorld competition is of such poor quality and the judging so suspect, do you not think that word would get around and modellers wouldn't want to travel those hundreds or thousands of miles to take part?
The reality is that judging at SMW is of an extremely high standard, but that there are occasionally decisions that are questioned - show me a competition, any competition, where that never happens.
There is a fundamental difference between the likes of AMT, Torrent, Euromilitaire and SMW. The first three are 'open' competitions that any modeller can enter. The SMW competition is an IPMS-only event because it is our annual championships. We are not seeking to compete with other major open competitions. Compare us instead with 'closed' championships like MAFVA, BMSS, AMPS or the other major overseas IPMS events.
Regards, John
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Post by hazmod on Oct 20, 2013 8:58:38 GMT
I can't say about Judges. Who views this points about scale models at competitions. It was very important from Competition Secretary. What happened to this trophy with my Corvette C5.R with commended at Scottish Nationals Scale Model Show 2013 on this year. I won't moan What happened to my Ducati GP 04 with equal second place with other motorcycle at Scottish Nationals Scale Model Show 2013.
Please Modellers will behave over judges, and leave them lone at competitions.
I can't criticism with judge's defend his decisions.
Competitors won't allowed to judges at SMW Competition
I'm regards with judges and competition secretary at SMW competition
Please Modellers will behave You will views points about Judges
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Post by modlad67 on Oct 20, 2013 15:06:09 GMT
Hi All, yes me again. Have to say this debate could go on forever and ever with differing view points about judging. A wise man once told me "when you start modeling for competitions and not for the sheer love of the hobby, give it up " Look, no two peeps are the same and judge A may love your model and judge B may hate it, but ask yourself this question, Why should you really give a toss ?? and why, if it will upset you if you don't win, did you bother entering in the first place?? Personally, as stated in my earlier threads, I do it because I love the hobby and win or not I enter for the fun, the experience, the time spend meeting new (and old friends) and if i win it's a bonus. If I don't then whoever judged my model at least took the time out of his (or her, mustn't be sexist) day, having came from who knows where in the world and passed their own critique. Beside I build for me and if others like my work, great nice to be appreciated. However if they don't then equally great. The next time i build a similar model I will endeavor to do better. BUT ONLY FOR ME!!! Let's be brutally honest here guys, if your only in it to win competitions, then give it up!!!!!! Ta.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2013 1:04:39 GMT
This week I watched a televised soccer match, one of the European Champions' League games. This is arguably the greatest club competition in the world. The referee had a bad game, and there have been calls for him to never officiate again in his life. The question is, was he a poor football official because his profession is actually a butcher, or was he in fact comparatively good because to have been considered for this level of competition he has been constantly monitored and assessed? Now apply that principle to the original point of this thread.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2013 2:38:51 GMT
It's now 3.35am and I should be in bed, and I've posted my thoughts on the judging of a particular past competition entry, on another thread. Then an idea occurred to me. In the magazine following SMW, the judges could write a column describing the features they considered during the competition. Nothing specific, but how they felt about the subjects, build quality, accuracy, etc. Not all the eighty-odd classes would need comment, and the editor would have to refuse all responses from members, but it might go some way to explaining the results. Constructive suggestions for the following year could then be considered. Just a thought before I go to sleep.
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Post by NoelSmith on Oct 25, 2013 9:14:10 GMT
Malc, Having judged at SMW in the past, bear in mind that most of the Saturday is sacrificed to do this. Realistically, I would not want to also be obliged to write a column on my thoughts afterwards. It's not as though judges get paid. Plus I think that the magazine editor has enough work to do already.In the past the society used to have a finger buffet laid on for judges as a little thank you during the judges briefing beforehand, but I think this is no longer the case to save costs. It can be a bit of a thankless job at times as although judges are acknowledged modellers, as human beings they cannot be expected to know absolutely everything about what they are judging. For what it is worth, when I judge, the first thing I would be looking at on any model would be any flaws in the basic build and finish. e.g. Odd mould lines not removed....orange peel paint....how the model sits etc. All pretty basic stuff that sorts out the also rans first. Every model has to be judged, but very often as soon as you look at all the models on a table the ones in contention can be spotted. With the high standard of modelling at SMW the contenders can be quite a number of models in any particular group, and then the judging really has to get a bit tough. I think it is fair to say that Judges tend to be 'Damned if they do, and damned if they don't'. The football referee analogy in an earlier post is a good reflection of this dilemma. Invariably the saga of the 'miffed modeller pot hunter' will no doubt go on ad infinitum.
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