I would agree with the build quality approach every time, followed by "G.A.S.H." (General Appearance and SHape - it's how they identified approaching aircraft in wartime). If it looks right, it is right. This seems to conflict with my own comments made as a competitor in another thread last night, but it illustrates the difficulties judges face. If one made a complete hash of a judging decision (and none come to mind so far), everyone would hear about it. Otherwise, I would never argue with them.
Even with an objective scoring system subjective assessments are made to fill it in. Therefore there are always elements of opinion and knowledge in any judge's assessment. I like to enter competitions as it helps to push my skill level and its nice to get prizes every once in a while. It is unrealistic to expect a prize every time as the level of competition is so high and there are many variables affecting judges' decisions.
There is no point in modellers getting wound up about how the models were judged, they should have a good look at the other models entered in the competition - no matter how good their own model is I bet there'd be something they can learn from other people's work! This is one of the major reasons I spend plenty of time looking at the models in a competition, including the classes other than those I have entered in myself.
Regarding judges providing a built model to show their level of expertise - an interesting idea but the level of model displayed won't give any indication to how good they are at judging.
I feel that competitions are important for our hobby and I enjoy looking at the other models entered at SMW (I usually manage to get at least one into the competition) as the level of workmanship is amazing. Long may this November tradition continue!
Cheap Sunglasses - so dark they don't even know your name.
HI Guys There is a good point made by Jamie and I would not have a problem showing my work so as to back up my credibility as a judge.
Another way in which we can be assured of judges credentials is to look back through previous years results and see who has won something even commended at Telford is an achievement. I have encouraged several friends to join the team of Judges but each and every one has been winners of gold at telford or Euro. This could be a way of weeding out the those who really should not be there, as per Jamie's comment about the judge he was working with. I was asked to cast an eye over the class and within a matter of minutes I had come to a conclusion which matched Jamie's, the other judge was still not convinced after quite a long time scale even though there were only a couple of entries.
There is no training for judges we all put ourselves forward to assist in what after all is a world class event. I think Jamie is right in his comments that it is only fair and proper that those who judge at this level should have attained the standards themselves to judge others work. After all you would not expect a 5 a side saturday afternoon football ref to referee the world cup now would you?
I read Haggis's comment about dry-brushing with white, with a sense of relief. There seemed to be a period of a few years when every serious entry was treated to this coating of hoar-frost, whether vehicle or person. It always looked wrong to me, and I couldn't understand what the judges saw in it. I'm glad that some of you agreed with me.
I was asked to judge at SMW this year and was honoured to be asked. Do i have credibility to judge someone,s work? Well i think i would not qualify in aircraft or ships as i have limited knowledge in the subject. But i can still pick out the winners usually.I do think i would qualify in diorama,s and AFV,s however as that is my main subject i model.Would i display my work for credibility?Sure. I have been fortunate to win several golds at SMW along with being a class winner in diorama,s two years in a row.I have won Gold and several other awards at euro and been best in show winner at numerous shows.Can i tell a good model from not so good a model? Well i picked best of show out this year in an instant as soon as i saw it i said thats best of show.The best models usually speak for themselves and jump out at you. When you have a lot of models at the highest quality it gets a lot tougher.I know a lot of peoples work in competitions and whether the person was a friend a stranger or an enemy of mine it would not make the slightest difference to my judging the piece. i think most shows have the odd judging issues but the best usually shine through.I think euro can be a bit hard on some of the entrants in the armour classes with a lot of top work receiving nothing at times.Especially as they don't have a limit on prizes given.I personally think the quality of build getting the result of Gold ,silver or Bronze in a category with no limit to how many is a better way than the 1st second and third type award.there are usually a lot of builds of equal quality and then it comes down to personal preference or trying to pick fault where there isn't one.I would rate SMW credibility as being one of the top along with Euro and the like now as you are seeing more and more top artist competing.Put it this way the best of show this year at Telford would blow anything at Euro out of the water by a long way in my personal view.I have witnessed more and more European top modellers turning up now with top names like Ivan Cocker this year among the foreign names not to mention top talent from Britain with people like Jamie Haggo ,Andy Brown, Kev smith ,Dan Sanky, David Parker ,Dave Maddox, Phil Hislop and Mac McConnell to name a few the show has some serious talent of the highest quality both in competing and judging.I witnessed at least three people judging that have won top awards at euro militaire this year so i think most of the judges have some idea.I was teamed up with a fellow modeller that i happen to have known for a while and who i would hold a high credibility to judge anyones model.I would have been horrified if i had someone like the fellow Jamie had on that earlier occasion.I would have had to say something to the top judge about it to be honest.The thing that winds me up in competitions is when a far inferior quality entrant wins over a far superior one be that in any competition and not just modelling.
I would like to ask a question on judging that was put to me by my partners mum. What are models actually judged on and is there a set standard for all models? Reason I am asking is based on an number of reasons AND NOT SOUR GRAPES CAUSE I ENTERED 7 FAIRLY DECENT MODELS AND GOT NOUGHT mind you, so did a lot of far more talented people than I walk away with in their eyes!! In all seriousness (and this is not a dig Andyargent) is their such an animal as an inferior modeller considering the amount of time, expense and effort put into a model and the guts to put it on show? Perhaps and this is only a suggestion, the judging should come from a wide range of the community such as traders, newer members etc and not just those who feel THEY ARE A MORE SUPERIOR MODELLER?
Hi MODLAD67 (I hate using these anonymous titles!) may I answer your questions and this relates to aircraft as that is the class that i build, write about, compete, and judge.
when judging there are some basic things to look for and these start with the facts such as are the flying surfaces aligned? you would be surprised at how many are not and this is an easy thing to pick up by using your eye to align things and see if it matches the opposite side. Then there is the basic modelling such as seam lines and panel lines , are they visible still and are they consistent, then there is the painting , is it smooth and realistic? then the decals are they silvering and are they correctly placed? then there is the overall reality does it look right and does the impression of it being a real item in miniature present itself? Then there is the information the modeller has provided such as details added or scratch built. Some would also use presentation as a marker but I try not too as this comes down to personal tastes.
Anyway what you may consider talented may not have all of the essential qualities outlined above and I use the points scoring method as suggested on the judges sheet, this way every model on the table gets looked at and scrutinised until a winner is found. There is often just a point between first and second and sometimes there is no difference and then you have to get down to really little details and scrutinise them to the nth degree on both models.
I hope that this goes some way to answering your questions and I would suggest that if you feel aggrieved at the judging I would encourage you to have a go yourself next year just ask the comp sec and I am sure he would allow you to pair up with someone to see how it is done.
Hi Tigger, (my names Will by the way), First I wish to point out I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO AGGRIEVATION TOWARDS JUDGES OR JUDGING, i am merely trying to get to grips with the judging process as this whole thread is becoming redonkulous!!! At the end of the day, whether models are judged by the most brilliant builder on the planet or the glue covered fingered novice, I feel we all have to accept that A) When we build for ourselves or competitions, we build for the hobby and can feel good about what we have produced regardless of how others think and feel about it and B) WE REALLY SHOULD ALL STOP WHINING ABOUT IT AND CONTINUE TO ENJOY THE HOBBY FOR OURSELVES AND OTHERS!!!! Sorry if that comes off a bit strong but had to be said. As for your suggestion of tagging along during judging, I would welcome and enjoy the opportunity. Regards Will.
I would just like to say that there were some amazing models in this years competition, some of the best that i have seen around the show circuit but that is to be expected at the UK nationals. Yes there will always be problems with judges that is all apart of a competition is the griping that follows. Most of it of course just bitterness that didn't win a category or get placed. However, there are times when judges are called in to question and rightly so and personally feel that this years judging once again was lacking in some areas. Two areas that particularly screamed out was in Sci-Fi and also 1/32 Aircraft. In the Sci Fi section you had a conglomeration of various pieces for a sci fi fighter that won the best in class, next to it was a vehicle from T2 done in alclads and i must say it was some of the best painting i have ever seen of alclad and metallics ever. The T2 vehicle placed nowhere even though execution was impeccable and a true credit to the modeller. The vehicle / aircraft that went on to win however was far less well finished, both in quality in build and in finish. I'm not sure about others but if the wheel and wings aren't symmetrically straight the alarm bells are ringing early and would need a miracle to still be judged the best in category. In the large scale aircraft, not sure what class was a black F4 Phantom. Again the model from a distance looked very impressive but when saw its base and what it was how it could win a class was truly shocking and frankly embarrassing. For a start the aircraft depicted is not carrier born, the unit is land based testing unit. The aircraft is primed and ready for a cat launch with no crew, hatches and radome open, but bridled and tensioned on a catapult. If those flaws wasn't enough then the deployment of the emergency generator was a nice icing on the cake. The model was a very good model but the execution in displaying it appropriately fell so far from the mark that it beggars belief that could screw things up so so badly and still walk away with a win under your belt.
The biggest problem with this is that the longer this sort of thing continues the more and more disrepute the competition there and others will be brought in to question and damage it. I understand that judging can not always be easy and been on both sides of the table so i do sympathise with both parties but judges or "experts" who are selected to be a judge should at least be able to apply common sense and at least some way of showing they are up to the job as that level of judging will kill a competition and whether enter in to it or not will certainly make people laugh about the decision and mock it away from the show.
One word of warning: never look for historical accuracy. Most of what we 'know', we don't. Official references only describe intentions, not real life. Even the well-worn phrase, "History is written by the winners" is wrong; just read the accounts of the Peterloo massacre, or the battle of Thermopylae. Who knows what sudden unexpected events caused the crew to abandon the Phantom, open hatches, deploy a generator, meanwhile forgetting to slacken the catapult tension? Or what publicity stunt caused the plane to be painted up in a land unit's scheme? We are modellers, not historians.
I can understand your point when comes to official historical recounts as with all things they can be warped by the victor or to suit someones own ends as we see it all to often in life, especially now. However, at the same time as that historical accuracy and significance have to be taken in to consideration when modelling any matter from the past and especially so when placing such a model in to a competition with its peers. Any model really be it aircraft, tank, boat or other matter that we depict is that of a real thing from the past and as such should be reproduced as such to show that. I by no means say that you msut know the airframes service history from construction to destruction but at least make it an historical representation of your chosen matter and to best of ones abilities to show that. Surely historical context must be taken in to account when building such a specific model as if you are not going to make it accurate to the original then what does it matter how you create, paint, decal or show off the subject model as it will have no bearing upon how it is perceived? I know its an extreme example but if i built and painted a tiger tank in bright yellow with pink polka dots would that be judged the same as someone who produced a very accurate tiger tank with correct marking for that particular vehicle from history?
Yes we are all modellers here and however you enjoy it is personal to each of us, we all enjoy things in our own ways, but there comes a time when especially in competition or depicting a certain snapshot from history that historical accuracy and context must be taken in to account and applied to the model.
This years show was based around the 50th Anniversary of the IPMS and I was wondering, how many models in the competition where judged on the grounds that most aftermarket and upscaling parts where unavailable then and the models where judged purely on build and finish? Granted there may not have been any models of that vintage on the tables but what would have been wrong with say a model that had a straight out of the box finish as opposed to a model that had all the modern bangs and whistles such as resin parts, etch brass etc. Surely for a show that was heralding it's success for all those years should have taken this into account and perhaps had a category based solely on PURE MODELLING i.e. straight outta the box, brush painted etc?? Hmmm...............?
Hi, thought i'd best add this point before the replies start. I have NO GRIPES against any of the modellers who where at the show and found almost all their work to be of the highest quality and the winners and runners up deserving of their achievements. But I feel that in all the madness surrounding the subject of judging the basic principles are being steam rollered over such as I've mentioned in previous threads. Least we all forget, it is a hobby and supposed to be enjoyable and fun and if we as a whole wish for it to continue for another 50 years, perhaps we should look at the bigger picture that inspires and encourages the HOBBY for others and stop being so knit picky and petty.
If you study the competition categories, you will see there are some for out of the box and some for detailed / converted etc. This means in most cases like is judged against like.
Having judged on several occasions (usually Sci-Fi but not this year) I can say that it is a virtually impossible task to 'please everybody'. All the judges are giving up their own time for free, you will never get a set of judges who know everything about everything in their allocated cateories, both technically and historically, there is a limited amount of time, and there is limited space and accessibility.
With those considerations, the judges (and organisers!) do a phenomenal job every year.
Regarding the comment above about Sci-Fi this year, the T2 Hunter Killer actually took bronze. The Sci-Fi categories are particularly troublesome to judge because of the large catchment of the categories in general, and also the range of manufacturing processes and qualities of the kits. You might get a 50-piece injection styrene kit facing off with a 2-3 piece vinyl or solid resin casting. We previously had 25mm gaming miniatures going against 1/4 scale figures (thankfully the figure classes have now been split) - sometimes it's not even apples and oranges, it's apples and a tesco's chicken Korma.....
It's been said before but it's worth repeating - if you have a beef with judging, then step up to the plate. Put yourself forward and do something constructive.
wafu819: Can anyone please tell me colour of f4j cockpit and where I can get a decent picture of the tie down points
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jay16: can anyone help i'm after the decalpool 1/12 wayne rainey and kevin schwantz leather decals for the 1988 season
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jay16: hello i've recently returned to the hobby i mainly build motor bikes from the 60's-00's kit all 1/12th scale and would like to thank the fellow members at the harrow club for helping me improve my builds
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dc: I'm trying to get in touch with Mike Verier, I spoke to him at the Tyneside show but I've lost the e-mail address, please could you reply Mike if you see this or pass it on to him if you know him,
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Jason: Blog updated pop on over to theaveragemodeller.com for a read,
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bannyjunior: Glad to report that I stumbled across this site: www.spotmodel.com who offer free copies of instructions for lots (all?) Tamiya kits - including my missing ones!
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kfirfae: Joined recently. Been stashing kits for years. Time to start building! A few years ago I purchased several lots/old kits off ebay. Need Instructions for the following 1/72 kits; Heller Alouette III, Airfix Coursair II, Hobbycraft Beaver.
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josef: To kfirfae: Maybe late ... I have tutorials for Beaver HC and Allouette Heller
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Uncle sage: Has anybody got a spare 1/48 scale cockpit canopy for a airfix stuka dive bomber Iv built the model but the canopy fell on floor and accidently got stood on and crushed other than that the model is complete thx
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Uncle sage: Has anybody built the italia 1/72 Wellington. I am in the process I must say the assembly of the front and rear gun turrets is the hardest job iv done on a model in over 40 years I spent hours assembling just 1 turret.
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