I completely understand that it isn't possible to know everything on all matter but at she same time the application of common sense or the basic principles of the displayed subject surely should be used to make a more informed decision. But I would be more then willing to judge again at any level as i do enjoy it a lot as exposes me to a lot of different models and subjects that are not always my first preference. I really enjoy entering and judging but that enjoyment is based upon their being some balance and understanding amongst the judging criteria and application of knowledge and understanding what it is your judging. I will always be happy to put myself on the line and judge a category without hesitation as i have done before in the past.
At times though criticism and critical thinking have to be brought up and asked otherwise standards wont keep being raised both on the table and by the judges
Given the diversity and range of subjects on display, I'd venture to say that NO judge can be familiar with all the subjects encountered and that's why the base and setting isn't usually taken into account, likewise the accuracy of the model. For instance, you may know a lot about a Phantom but absolutely nothing about a Sabre. Or loads about Formula One and zilch about Indy cars. Should you therefore penalise the one which you know is wrong (or think you know - some folks think they know a lot but actuality is less than expectation) whilst ignoring similar faults on the one of which you know nothing?
And if it's a question of reality, do many aircraft park on mirrors? How many ships have you seen in full sail without a solitary figure on board? How many have you seen in full sail without figures and without water? Why do so many AFV dioramas have the same group of cross-eyed peasants handing over the same bottle of wine to a different tank? And why do they all have the same pet dog (or does he get about a bit)? Most dioramas are fictitious so we can only say that it could have happened rather than that it did. And of course it would mean that judging fantasy and sci-fi subjects would have to be based on totally different criteria.
It's modelling skill that matters and while presentation may give a favourable impression, if you read the competition rules, it's not taken into account in the marking.
I wrote out so many comments last night, and had second thoughts, that I don't remember whether I actually published this: if we go for historical accuracy, every "What If" model would be disqualified. Did you see the old US war film about a submarine that was forced to put to sea before it was ready, and was still painted in pink primer? I know it was fiction, but perfectly feasible. We don't know what really went on unless we did it ourselves, and even then our memories are fickle. I think everyone's comments have been sensible and relevant, but we naturally disagree on different points. There's nothing wrong with that, so don't let it deteriorate. If there were a simple solution to the 'problems', someone would have found it in the last 50 years.
Very true Malc. I asked one of the drivers who took part in a Le Mans 24hr race just what colour the car he co-drove was painted. His answer was good and accurate as it later transpired but he couldn't remember the interior colour. He thought it might have been brown and again was right but he certainly couldn't be sure.
Another motor-cycle racer I spoke to was a great guy but for the life of him couldn't remember the colour of the race number plates for either of the bikes he rode to win both the 350cc and 500cc production races on the Isle of Man, the first rider ever to win both on the same day. As he said, he was more interested in riding them than what colour they were!
Over forty years ago I went on three separate gliding holidays, including going solo and I can't remember the colours of any of the gliders I flew. So much of historical accuracy depends on faded photos and and fading memories.
I'm currently attempting to research details of Segrave's Golden Arrow. You wouldn't believe how hard it is to find out some of the most basic details like the instrument and cockpit layout. And that car still exists! I want it to be accurate and most likely no-one will realise if it isn't, least of all the poor guy judging it (unless of course he/she's been down the same route..................but I will..................
Surely the only 'qualifications' or 'credentials' that a judge needs is to be a member of the IPMS? For those who might not have seen the facebook page, I volunteered yesterday to join the judging team, I don't enter competitions and feel that SMW is the only place to have a comp. And the thankless task of judging has to be done. But having had the following conversation at SMW this year, it's made me realise that if you can put a model together, you know which ones are worthy winners. "So, what do you think to the suggestion of judges putting models out to prove their worthiness?" "Well, someone would have to judge them, wouldn't they? Then where would those judges put their models? And who would judge them? It's a huge pointless circle" Put like that it would get rather ridiculously elitist and take up too much room to 'prove a point', but it's true.
How about having a 'volunteer bank' - where there is a hat with the names of IPMS members who have been put forward by their clug/sig (with their permission, of course) and for every SMW 10 are pulled out of the hat to help with the judging? That way we could be sure that judging is done by ordinary members of the IPMS.
I am the understanding wife!
North Somerset Modellers - anything in any scale. We just enjoy it ...
I don't like the elitist attitude that says everything has to be ramped up year after year in order to "improve" the already high standards we see today. If we go on at that rate we'll end up with judges having to pass an exam in order to qualify for what exactly..............a hobby! And something that's voluntary after all. It already bothers me that posts on the EC effectively have job descriptions and applicants virtually have to supply a CV. Maybe that's why there isn't exactly a queue to fill the slots when they become vacant. It's a far cry from the early and more homely days of IPMS and not perhaps entirely in keeping with the spirit of what was originally intended. I like fixing things that are broken but if it ain't broke..................
The idea of a judges pool is great and a good way to be more inclusive to members. After all isn't that what any society is about........... Dave
Hi, I understand that the base isn't apart of the judging for some reason and yes there are times when a mirrored base or ships out of water look better for it and im not disputing that in any way, I've even used a mirrored base myself to show off work done on the understand of ab aircraft. The point im making about the base in that example is that if you are going to use a base to improve the display of the model in such a manner then it has to be correct. Surely that is a forever example of modelling skill if you can pull of a base to display the model with. I can not see how base building and display can be separated from modelling skill. The base is the extension of the entered model and is in some cases integral to the display, diorama bases for example and even just aircraft on the decking or ground the base highlights the model, gives it a bit more depth and can make a massive difference how a model is displayed and perceived. In some cases bases can be modelling in their own right to create the perfect look someone is after, some bases you can buy now come with more bits then some of the kits these days and are just as intricate so to say that its about modelling skill not how you display it doesn't seem to work or fit. Yes it is about the model but a base can make or break a display and in this one example it broke it. Madmalc I was very aware of that series of liberators / bombers as i have bought the decal sheets for a few of that aircraft as they do look amazing, as well as for sponsored spitfire built by donations so i understand in war time all kinds of craziness happen. But if you did those ones shown you have got historical references as shown in the pictures you provided that they both existed so if you built those 2 examples you would be recruiting something historically accurate whicch was my point earlier. However you could still paint something or create something way way off the reservation like i said a yellow n pink ww2 tiger or an all gold me109 just to be ridiculous but when compare that to say one that has to been created to mimic a full scale representation of an actual aircraft or subject, which most modelling is to depict a single subject, not including what ifs and sci-fi as this just wouldn't be possible due to their very nature, then how can it be judged to the same standard?
That does sound like a very good idea but being an IPMS member doesn't make you a modeller, I know of relatives that are members of clubs / SIGS, one of which was apart of the formation of an IPMS club, and the IPMS that have never touched a model in their lives and some have no interest in ever picking up a pair of cutters and a sprue but they pay their membership fees to get in to the SMW early and cheaper then on the door as well as having the additional bonus of the discounts for shops. Nowhere on the form does it state that you are a modeller , just name address n payment not what you have built, interested in or anything like that. The idea of having apool of judges to pick from would be very good idea if got enough volunteers in to the pool so wouldn't always be same names out but all of that is based upon how many people really are up for judging and it isn't every bodies cup of tea. It cant hurt to at least trial it though.
Hi Tocriad, You may be surprised to hear that I agree with you entirely about bases. I've never entered a model for a competition without a base and for all the reasons you suggest I think a base puts a model into context in a much better way than just putting it on the table.
But whatever you and I think about it, part of the IPMS contest rules state that for a single subject entry, the base will not be taken into consideration in the judging procedure. That's just the way it is and it's like that for some of the reasons I outlined. How can you allocate marks to a model set on a mirror base compared to one set on a scenic base where great care has been taken to get the context and scale effect right. How can you compare a ship set on a stand to a waterline model mounted in a realistic sea setting which could have taken a lot of extra work to build. Add to that the requirement to be "correct" and you're setting an impossible task for any judge. Without access to original photos how can any judge decide what's correct or not. For instance, just because an aircraft is carrier based doesn't mean it never set down on land, etc etc.
Regarding Harriet's idea to use IPMS members, she did say that names could be forwarded by the Branches or SIGs which hopefully would filter out non-modellers. I'd expect any Branch Secretary to apply a bit of common sense in that regard.
I think that it has already been said in earlier threads that the judges at SMW have already 'Paid Their Dues' having been past winners.
An IPMS member since 1974. Also branch secretary Berkshire branch in 1975. Edited IPMS magazine late 70's 2 years, serving the National Committee. Judged at SMW recently some car classes. Main interests are cars and and sailing ships. Still trying to convice people that IPMS is not just aircraft!
Its refreshing to hear someone agreeing that bases are important. Maybe the commitee or Competition Secretary could look at the ruling to ammend the use of bases or at least get some clarification on the use of them and the impact. I understand currently they have no sway at the moment but when does a base become more then a stand and integral to the model itself?, for the example a catapult launch off a carrier, with the model being mounted to the base and displayed in such a manner surely the base has to be considered apart of the model as it is even attached to it via the bridel and the horser. This links in a solid manner both the aircraft and the base together. How can they be judged seperately from each other?
Noel Smith, As a previous class championship winner in consecutive years does that mean i have "paid my dues" and am worthy of being a judge at SMW?
Hi Tocriad, Not sure if you're a new member or not but if you look at the centre pages of Issue 4 of the IPMS Magazine you'll find under the heading of "Definitions" a sub heading "Bases and Cases" setting out the conditions of using a base. Obviously dioramas are exempt. In the case of a catapult launch, only the crew of the aircraft can be in place OR a single ground crew figure, not both (or it will constitute a diorama) which leaves the modeller with the dilemma of his set piece lacking realism. I agree that an unmanned aircraft on a cat looks odd.
All my models (mainly cars) are fixed to their base so in effect it's an integral part of the model. Because I take time over the appearance I think it's a shame that it doesn't enter the equation as I've gone to a lot more trouble to present my models properly. I understand some of the reasoning behind that but as you say, it'll take an alteration to the rules to change the current situation.
Maybe it is something they can consider looking in to at the next redefining of the rules and regulations and see if they can improve upon it or at least make the bases / basing of the models part of the equation.
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