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Post by NoelSmith on Dec 5, 2013 19:14:52 GMT
In view that the society is now officially registered as IPMS UK THE SOCIETY FOR SCALE MODELLERS and not International Plastic Modellers Society UK that our new status be reflected by a major change to the SMW Competition Rules. Over the years, many kits now include parts other than plastic. If we are to be perceived as one of the world's premier scale modelling groups our rules should be loosened up to embrace modellers who use other modelling materials as well as plastic, whether from the kits themselves or using raw materials for conversions and scratch building.
Therefore my proposal is: That ANY materials be allowed to be used for any structural part of any model across ALL our existing classes, whether it be any type of plastic, wood, metal or any other type of material that lends itself better to the modeller in the creation of a model that must by definition only be a STATIC SCALE MODEL.
This could make the SMW rules much simpler to administer, make judging easier and avoid competitor complaints on the day that may lead to a disqualification.
I welcome plenty of feedback to this thread so that plenty of open discussion about my proposal can take place on this board well before the AGM in 2014.
Kind regards Noel Smith
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Post by tony on Dec 5, 2013 19:50:54 GMT
Thanks Noel This is a different proposal to the one by Fastcars but is along similar lines. Any rule changes to the competition does not have to be voted on at the AGM. It is left to the competition secretary to make the decision, this has to be announced at the AGM. So let's have a good debate on this matter and hopefully we can move the society in the right direction.
Tony.
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Post by patcommu on Dec 5, 2013 22:22:25 GMT
Hi All, The Noel's proposal opens the doors to the wooden ships modeling. I appreciate very much this kind of models but I know that they require a lot of space and are very difficult to judge (a lot of historical issues, ridging details, etc.). I don't know if there are judges qualified to judge wooden vessels among IPMS members, if so Noel's proposal could be conclusive (space on the tables apart). Now is your move Patrizio
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Post by John Tapsell on Dec 5, 2013 22:51:47 GMT
For what it's worth, whilst I'd like to see a relaxation of the rules to allow for die-cast metal parts to be allowed - i.e. broadening the definition of a multi-media kit - (as per Fastcat's suggestion), I don't believe that we should abandon the fundamental tenet of what we are.
For the vast majority of the current membership, plastic is still considered the primary material. To force a fundamental change upon them could have unfortunate consequences.
Scale Modelling has developed over the years and continues to do so. Better (in my view) to allow a gradual change that reflects changes in the hobby as a whole. I don't see how we could judge a plastic sailing ship against a wooden one for example and say which was 'better'. The skill sets required for both are equally relevant but very different. Neither can we afford to introduce lots more classes to accommodate different materials.
'Small steps' would be my preference rather than 'huge leaps'.
Regards, John
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Post by fastcat on Dec 5, 2013 22:52:07 GMT
Hi Noel, I'm not sure that the addition of a few words after the IPMS changes the concept or the content of the letters IPMS although it allows a slightly less rigid approach. There are many sensible concessions to entirely non plastic models such as 1/43 cars, figures and sailing ships (Class 68 allows any material and any scale) which recognise the shortage of plastic subjects in those areas. I'd like to see that extended to include kits of locomotives as I think it provides a wider scope and there are so few plastic kits out there. Maybe that would attract more interest in that area.
The use of other materials for some parts can only be a good thing as it enables modellers to use the best materials for their work but if we allow all metal models throughout the classes I think we lose something of our identity and take on the identity of model engineers. That's not totally a bad thing but not the reason the Society was formed.
Moreover, the use of all metal or whatever in scratch-built classes could pit models produced on expensive machine tools against some poor guy armed with a scalpel, a sheet of plastic card and a bottle of glue which is hardly a level playing field. I don't think that would ease judging and I'm pretty sure that after a short while there'd be calls for separate sub classes for the engineered models.
I'm all in favour of extending the scope of media permitted in all areas but I'd like to see the retention of plastic, resin etc. in some measure in most classes. Just my personal feelings. Best regards Dave
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Post by fastcat on Dec 5, 2013 23:07:00 GMT
Looks like John and I hit the buttons at the same time! I agree with John's sentiments entirely. Allowing other media to be used across the board, provided a substantial amount of plastic is retained (except in the classes already nominated) would in itself be a significant move in the right direction.
Dave
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edgar
Kit Basher
Posts: 91
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Post by edgar on Dec 6, 2013 0:12:57 GMT
Well, we went from "The Nationals" to "Scale Modelworld," so a further change to the "Model Engineering Exhibition" shouldn't be too onerous. We've spent 50 years showing the world what can be achieved with cheap plastic, and inspiring youngsters into believing that they could achieve the same result, without breaking the piggy-bank. Are we now to say, "Well, actually, no, we can't do it any more, so you'll need to invest in lathes, drills, grinders, welding equipment, soldering irons, and other heavy equipment if you want to aspire to our lofty level?" Thank you very much, but you can keep it. Edgar
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Post by tocriad on Dec 6, 2013 5:49:29 GMT
Hey all, I think the use of different materials can only be a good thing not only for the society but will be of great benefit to the competition as will allow for a lot more creativity and every class can then be allowed to use what they like. Allow we are about the plastic there are times when additions conversions or just models made of wood and metal really sing out and begged to be built. Remember this is only for the competition so for the majority of day to day modelers out there this will almost go past unnoticed or uncared about. From a competition stand point id welcome to see what people can come up with regardless of the materials used. As long as when it comes to judging it is clearly noted down what's used or separate classes for the division of materials, as the example of an all wooden ship is impossible to compare to that of a plastic kit then i am all up for the expansion of mediums. After all, if the name has changed away from International Plastic Modelers Society then maybe its time that we should embrace the future an take a leap in to the use of the new materials that are readily available. Should it fall flat on its face or new rules are too unwieldy then we can always change them back and look back that at least new ideas were embraced and tried rather then being stagnant and stuck in our ways.
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Post by hazmod on Dec 6, 2013 7:49:59 GMT
I will think about it, and what is it?, and I'm agreed Fastcat, Edgar, and John Tapsell. Let me saying it now. I has views previous threads on this SMW Competition boards. I know it Modellers who still make his various parts of modelling build with more refinements pieces. I pointed out with edgar's thread posts, and I'm agreed him. Still be attitude modelling build on future, More Iron Wolfs and Touchwoods still come to attitude with model community for IPMS. It will must building this model bridge on here. more attitude modelling with more refinements with various parts of materials and different pieces. Model Engineers want building with this model bridge with IPMS My reference called Iron Wolf means Alloys metals, and various parts of metals, and called Touchwoods means various part of woods. We still see and wait and relaxed with keep patience
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edgar
Kit Basher
Posts: 91
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Post by edgar on Dec 6, 2013 8:35:32 GMT
After all, if the name has changed away from International Plastic Modelers Society then maybe its time that we should embrace the future an take a leap in to the use of the new materials that are readily available. Should it fall flat on its face or new rules are too unwieldy then we can always change them back and look back that at least new ideas were embraced and tried rather then being stagnant and stuck in our ways. If you think that the name has changed, I suggest you look at the header on this forum's main page, and look a little more closely at the title on the gold badge handed out to Members at Telford, this year. I also find comments like "stagnant" and "stuck in our ways" particularly offensive, when I think back to how various Committees, over the years, have worked tirelessly to find ways to embrace new technology, while remaining true to the ideals of the originators of this society.
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Post by fastcat on Dec 6, 2013 10:05:02 GMT
Like Edgar, I don't think the Society is stagnant or stuck in it's ways. It may seem a little slow in catching up with new technology and trends in kit production but given the rate of change as new techniques become viable, that's hardly surprising.
I think the output and sales of kits are falling, hence the high prices and demise of most of the original companies so there will be a shift in manufacturing technique to enable shorter production runs but lets take that as it comes ie as an evolution rather than a revolution. Having read through the rules carefully, I think they need a general overhaul as there are a number of anomalies, particularly in Junior classes where the use of metal hasn't been read across from the Senior classes.
I'd also like to see metal kits allowed in the locomotive class, not because it affects me but because of the scarcity of plastic kits. Broaden our scope by all means but lets keep it in proportion.
Dave
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Post by hazmod on Dec 6, 2013 11:13:05 GMT
I'm agreed with Fastcat, on last post on this thread. Hornby company will looked more refinement model railways with metal and plastic build on future. Junior competitors want enter to any various models on SMW competition, but Junior competitors still learning to models and project it Junior competitor will received his award for junior competition with various model and next five years, He will become to senior and he can't enter to his various model for SMW competition annual because It was different parts for his various model or breached the rules. I have know it, next generation modellers will more boldly and refined his or her models on future
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Post by NoelSmith on Dec 6, 2013 18:51:29 GMT
The society has moved on in many ways for the better over the years and has done the best it can within the present and past constraints of the competition rules. Whilst I agree with Edgar that the society is not stagnant or stuck in its ways, we still have to move on in order to grow and appeal to a larger scale model making base. International Plastic Modellers Society appears on the logo and the anniversary badge...no arguement with that but is this now really a reminisce from the past? John Tapsell has pointed out in another thread that as a company we are officially registered as IPMS UK The Society For Scale Modellers so our emphasis should be on scale rather than plastic to move forward. I am not quite sure where Edgar is coming from with his reference to 'cheap plastic'. Looking at the prices of some of the plastic kits in current production, it is definitely not cheap plastic any more and much of the more esoteric stuff getting prohibitively priced. It does not stop there either by the time a shed load of photo etched metal, alternative decals and after market resin bits are bought, and this seems quite the norm these days. Who says this hobby is cheap? Long gone are the days of the two bob Airfix kits from Woolworths! Edgar argues about the expense of lathes, milling machines and soldering irons. Well actually, if you get down to pricing up a small bench top lathe and milling machine like an Emco Unimat for example and using raw materials to make scale models can actually work out a hell of a lot cheaper than continuously shelling out on kits ad infinitum. I am not advocating that we should become a model engineering group, but that more diverse materials should be used as a means to an end to make highly accurate static scale models. In the past I have seen exquisite small ship models made from wood where the modeller has used nothing more than simple hand tools, raw materials and modelling skill. Also, there are more wooden sailing ship kits than plastic, so why should wooden model ship builders be excluded? Getting back to kits, many made from white metal essentially go together in a similar fashion to a plastic model. A good example of this is the South Eastern Finecast ranges of 1/24th scale classic car kits, that are not allowed in our competitions whereas 1/43rd scale white metal car kits are. I recently built one of the old Hubley Duesenberg SJ Car kits. The body parts were die cast and the rest in plastic. Again not allowed to enter it under present rules. In the main as I see it most modellers will still build from kits in any case. But why just be hide bound to Plastic? I do not see the need for more classes to be made as wood, metal and plastic models can go head to head as judgement will always be made on the quality of the model, not from what it is made.
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Post by kitcat on Dec 6, 2013 19:45:50 GMT
When I along with the review team came up with the new rules I thought we had covered the use of other materials. That was one of the big changes to legalise multimedia kits and multimedia working in all but name. I and no one else predicted computer generated models and this would need to be looked at. As far as rule change advance with care and don,t think a simple stroke with the pen will suffice as I think this should go an AGM. Remember metal and other materials were allowed but as an source kit classes was incausiously dropped perhaps this is less apparent. I only introduced standard kit classes as a sop to tradionalists and for these to be entry-level classes. This failed and should be dropped as most entrants are pot hunters of some success and experience. Open up the can of worms if wish bur remember the sourceres apprentice.
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Post by John Tapsell on Dec 6, 2013 23:19:30 GMT
Noel,
I said we operate under the 'IPMS (UK) - the Society for Scale Modellers' banner - I didn't say that was how we are registered. I believe we are formally registered at Companies House as 'The International Plastic Modellers Society' trading as 'IPMS (UK)'
IPMS (UK) is our title, whilst 'The Society for Scale Modellers' is our strap line.
Remember also that the competition is only open to IPMS Members and since most of those members still build in plastic, you'd need to persuade existing IPMS Members that there is sufficient (and quantifiable) demand from within the Society to justify a significant rule change. Alienating the existing membership in order to encourage a different type of modeller to join isn't the way forward.
The vast majority of IPMS Members have no objection to multi-media kits containing elements of resin, metal and occasionally other materials. However, that is a far cry from asking them to accept completely non-plastic kits to compete against.
As I said in an earlier post, in my view the way to approach this is to make gradual changes that keep pace with the hobby - as the hobby grows and changes, so IPMS should grow and change with it.
The competition rules should reflect the preferences of the wider membership, not be used as a means to define which preferences are acceptable. If the competition rules don't reflect those wider membership preferences, the competition will lose its relevance to most of us.
The reason I prefer Fastcat's approach is that it provides an incremental change that takes into account the growth and of multi-media kits and the materials that can be found within them.
Regards, John
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