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Post by tony on May 2, 2014 8:06:20 GMT
Hi All
After a good debate at the start of the year on the proposal to change the rules for all classes in allowing other mediums into the competition, I have made a decision on this matter. the proposal was brought about by competitors who enter the civilian vehicle classes (classes 46 to 53) and there concerns that new kits of civilian vehicles were carrying more additional parts that were not made from plastic. they had concerns about disqualification at SMW and were seeking a rule change. there was also a proposal to have this rule change across all the classes in the competition.
after reading all the posts that were made and listening to the comments made on this matter I have decided to amend the rules concerning those classes. below is how the special rule will allow this into those classes and with the help of the judges at SMW we have also amended the classes for civilian vehicles. the feeling on the proposal to extend this to all classes was maybe going to far to quick, and we will have to see how this works for the classes 46 to 53 and there is always a possibility to extend this rule change to all classes in the future. this is how the exemption will look in the rules and definitions for this year 2014.
SPECIAL RULES FOR THE FOLLOWING CLASSES.
Civilian Vehicles Category: Due to the preponderance on the market of kit parts and accessories in produced other mediums (i.e. white metal, die cast, resin and photo-etched), entries in Classes 46 to 53 may contain such items. The use of any such parts must be stated on the entry card and should specify whether the parts were provided in the kit or are from an aftermarket source. Also the use of appropriate stands & trestles will be allowed for display in the civilian vehicle classes. But any other additions will render the entry a diorama.
and this is how the changes to the classes and scales will look in the classes.
Civilian Vehicles. 46 1/30 Scale and smaller. SK, ASD, ASC, V 47 1/29 up to and including 1/21 Scale. SK 48 1/29 up to and including 1/21 Scale. ASD, ASC, V (Revised Class) 49 1/20 Scale and larger. SK, ASD, ASC, V (Revised Class) 50 Commercial Vehicles (HGV, Buses and Fire engines) in any scale. SK, ASD, ASC, V 51 Motorcycles, any scale. SK, ASD, ASC, V 52 Custom cars, Hot Rods and any vehicles not covered above. Any scale. SK, ASD, ASC, V, S 53 Any motor vehicle, any scale. SD and S. (Revised Class)
As I stated this was done with the help of competitors and judges and hopefully will help in spreading all the entries into the right classes. I will be monitoring this over the course of the run up to SMW and during the competition as well. I will be making a formal announcement at the AGM on the 10th May.
Tony.
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Post by jwhalen on May 5, 2014 14:00:11 GMT
Hi Tony,
Sounds like a senisble ammendment.
Class 52 used to be called Custom Cars, Hot Rods and Dragsters. Where would a dragster be entered now? It would make sense to keep drag racing models with the hot rod class as in the real world drag racing evolved from hot rodding. Maybe the new class should be called Custom Cars, Hot Rods, Dragsters and any vehicles not covered above or Custom Cars, Hot Rods, Drag Racing (to reflect there are many classes of cars in drag racing e.g. Top Fuel, Funny Car, Pro-modified, Pro-stock etc. as well as vehicles that people drive on the street as well as competing with them on a drag strip) and any vehicles not covered above.
Cheers,
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Post by NoelSmith on May 5, 2014 19:42:18 GMT
Hi Jim re Dragsters It may have just been simply a typo ommission on Tony's part. I expect that he will get back to you on this. Cheers Noel
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Post by fastcat on May 6, 2014 12:06:46 GMT
Strictly speaking there's no reason that dragsters can't be entered into the appropriate scale class as with other competition cars. Most of the entries for the Custom and Hot Rod Class seem to be effectively "What-Ifs" while most dragsters are based on real cars. I'm not sure why the original distinction was made other than to separate "Americana" from the rest. I think dragsters were lumped in with that group when for the most part they could have been included with other competition vehicles. Just a thought. Dave
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perdu
Sprue Cutter
Posts: 34
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Post by perdu on May 6, 2014 13:50:44 GMT
Hi Tony, only just caught up with this and I think you have it just about bang on.
Any kit so distributed should be eligible of course, the days when I was against 'tin bits' in a IPMS class have faded from even my memory now.
I see really clever cast parts that take my breath away in kit boxes these days.
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Post by jwhalen on May 6, 2014 16:22:58 GMT
This reply is going a little off topic because it is more about classes than the addition of different materials but has Tony has rejigged the classes I guess it isn't too far away: I don't really think Class 52 is there to separate "Americana" from vehicles from other countries as many entries of American cars would belong in other classes (e.g. a stock 1/25th scale Chevrolet Camaro or Corvette would need to be entered into Classes 47 or 48 depending on how much the builder has done to it whereas the same sort of car modified for drag racing or done in a pro-touring style (where an older car has been updated with modern running gear) would need to be entered into Class 52). The type of cars entered into Class 52 are quite different from other types of cars and are not necessarily based on American cars (I remember a stretched Lamborghini doing quite well one year). In relation to "What ifs" if a model builder thinks of a particular subject there's a very good chance it has been done with a real car somewhere. Often to replicate a particular hot rod or style of customised car a lot of conversion work needs to be done requiring different skills and I think its easier for the judges to have more specific classes to look at (imagine only 1 or 2 aircraft classes - bet that would be difficult to judge!) I'm very happy Class 52 exists and SMW is the only show I go to where there is a separate class for the type of car I seem to build more frequently.
Now that there are more enteries into the car classes (thankfully!!) Classes 47 and 48 could be given another class for competition vehicles as these have different challenges from most road cars (e.g. more decals, exposed engines or replicating a specific car at a specific race). Maybe if this trend continues there will be sufficient evidence supporting some more classes within the civilian vehicles section of the competition.
I'm sure Tony will be monitoring the numbers of entries into the various classes and I hope he also keeps a record of the types of models that tend to do well (e.g. are race cars more likley to due well in Class 47 as they may get more marks for decals?)as this may indicate whether more classes are needed. Some healthy debate on here amongst civilian vehicle modellers will also help I'm sure!!
Cheers,
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Post by fastcat on May 6, 2014 18:44:29 GMT
Sorry, I wasn't implying that Class 52 shouldn't exist, only that there's no reason that a drag car shouldn't be included with other competition vehicles. In principle it's little different to an LSR which can bear absolutely no resemblance to a road car.
Hot rods and show cars are different. Relatively few kits of actual vehicles exist which is why many modellers go their own way and I think Class 52 is perfect for this although there's a blurred line between actual and imaginary cars. Personally, I think it's harder to replicate an original vehicle than it is to make one up to suit ones taste. For example if you don't like wire wheels, it's no problem to use something else. The same applies to paint. The real colour of Lil' Coffin is very difficult to depict on a scale model but no such problem exists for a flight of fancy. On the other hand, how do you reward imagination and artistry?
I agree completely with your remarks regarding the distinction between road cars and competition cars. Unfortunately to be fair it would require not one but several new classes to allow for the same scales as existing classes. You can't easily judge a 1/43 car against a 1/12 scale car. The disciplines (and kit quality) are completely different. In theory, given equality in all other respects, most competition cars should come out on top due to the decals and might even beat a slightly better road car. Just another reason why a points system doesn't work and can discriminate against some subjects.
Overall, the new rules are very welcome and a recognition of the evolution of our hobby.
Best regards Dave
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Post by NoelSmith on May 15, 2014 20:31:23 GMT
Fastcat, Your post made an interesting read with regard to that the points system may handicap certain models. e.g. A car plastered with decals getting more points than a road car just with number plates that happens to be in the same class. If a judge uses the points system 'per se' then I agree that perhaps a model that is overall better finished could lose out against a model that gains points simply due to mass decal application. In this sort of situation a judge should in my opinion use a bit of common sense. I have judged at SMW in the past so do not know how the current score sheet is itemised. When I judged a few years ago, 'decal application' and 'originality of subject' were part of the points criteria. With regard to decal application any road car with only number plates was given a 6 out 10 or it would have suffered too much of a handicap under the system at that time. I used to completely ignore the originality of subject as a point getter and give all models a 5 out of 10 regardless of what they were. I am dead against originality of subject as a criteria for gaining marks. Why should anybody be penalised for their choice of making a more popular subject like a Ford Mustang that could be a really nice model as opposed to someone raking in points for making a less well built really obscure subject that hardly anyone has heard of? When I have ever judged it has always been about high build quality and the paint finish first and foremost, as I have always considered it my remit to judge the modeller's ability as a prority over other considerations. Tony has made some sensible, pragmatic changes in the civvy vehicles classes. Yes, it would be nice to sub divide and create more classes, but impractical at this point in time. I expect that Tony will be looking to see what the revised classes uptake is this year at SWM, maybe with a view to looking at the feasability of any more class changes or additions for the future. The current changes should put paid to any complaining like we have had in the past about metal kit parts etc. There is some fantastic Multi Medium 1/43rd stuff about and some very highly detailed kits available, many who's quality would put some larger kits to shame. Too small for my eyes to cope with though! Class 53 should prove interesting with models from kits that have been super detailed being pitched against completely scratch built models. The Civvy Vehicles tables at SMW should be very interesting this year.
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Post by fastcat on May 16, 2014 20:31:19 GMT
Hi Noel Yes, it's difficult to think of a points system that doesn't create some sort of discrimination. If you rule out originality on the grounds of unfairness, accuracy because it can't be verified, decals because it can work against an otherwise perfect road car there's not an awful lot left! I don't even know if a points system is in operation these days - nobody seems to be owning up.
Regarding the new rules, if you read them carefully, they don't allow all-metal models in Class 46 (1/43) any more, only non metal with some metal pieces. I think this is a mistake and an oversight. Metal kits have been allowed in this Class for over 20 years. All three medal winners last year were metal - they were Tameo kits. I know because one was mine. If that's not changed, there will be NO F1 cars in Class 46 next year.
I've taken it up with Tony because if it isn't changed back to what it was, it'll be a really retrograde step. I can visualise many entrants who are used to this class being rejected if it's applied. I can remember getting it clarified when Karen Cunliffe was the Comp. Sec. back in the days of Donington. I'm hoping it was just a slip.
One other point is that this has not been read across to the Junior Class as far as I can see. I don't understand this. As an all inclusive Society, juniors should have the same access to the same kits as the rest of us. I'm disappointed in this as it was highlighted in a previous thread.
Kind regards Dave
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Post by NoelSmith on May 17, 2014 12:33:10 GMT
Hi Fastcat, I don't think that you have to worry. I have had a good read of the categorisation header of the civilian classes rules. How I read it is that the description says that kit parts can be of any material. It does not say that only a limited number of parts of the kit should be in something other than plastic. It simply says that entries in classes 46 to 53 may contain such items. So if the whole kit is of white metal, photo etched or die cast bits as far as I can see it is eligible under the new rules, provided that the use of is specified on the entry card. Resin is technically a plastic anyway, so this material has never been an issue even under the old rules. Some years ago I built a model of a Duesenberg SJ from the old Hubley kit where all the main body parts were die cast metal and the rest of the bits in plastic. Interpreting the new rules I should now be able to enter it into the SMW competition whereas die cast parts were not allowed before. The new rules are where Tony has taken on board that scale auto models generally come in a variety of different materials and the rules have been revised to reflect how the the market place is in this particular sector, and also to give the converter and scratchbuilder more guidance about eligible materials. Kind regards Noel
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Post by fastcat on May 17, 2014 19:22:44 GMT
Hi Noel, Well, it could be interpreted that way but when I asked Tony, he categorically stated that all-metal models would not be allowed in Classes 46 to 53. I've not had a reply to my second email yet which set out the case historically and practically for Class 46 at least. So as it stands at the moment, all-metal isn't allowed in ANY class other than figures. I hope that gets changed.
Kind regards Dave
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Post by NoelSmith on May 17, 2014 20:15:09 GMT
Hi Dave I hear what you are saying with regard your one to one emails with Tony. So,if this is the case then Tony really needs to reword the categorisation to spell out that all metal models will not be allowed. As it is currently worded it is wide open to mis interpretation that any materials can be used. I can see it all kicking off if a model is disqualified, and the builder being embarrassed by the decision due to the wording of the category, and genuinely was trying to keep to the rules as specified. I have re read it over again, and still interpret them as I did before. I think that a lot of people entering the civilian vehicle classes would interpret them as I have done who are not party to this forum discussion. Does it really matter if a model is made from metal parts or plastic parts? The basics are much the same. Assembling, detailing and painting. Hopefully Tony will clarify what you have said in the wording of the category. Besides the 1/43rd stuff that you do, there are some really nice white metal classic car kits in 1/24th scale in the South Eastern Finecast and Auto Kits ranges and modern rally cars in the Big kits range. It would be a shame if these were excluded in the new ruling. Personally I hope there is a rethink considering our viewpoints, especially as to how it affects you. We appear to be thinking along the same lines about what we want in the competition. Anyway, we will wait and see. Cheers Noel
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