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Post by cmatthewbacon on Nov 17, 2008 13:10:34 GMT
Please don't take this as sour grapes...
I'm just wondering whether it is time to amend the criteria for the standard kit category in response to the increasing number of boxes that contain resin, etch etc. At the moment, if I understand it correctly, if I bought an Airfix 1/48 Seafire 47, and a CMK resin engine, and an Eduard "Big Ed" set for it, and built a model, I'd have to enter it in the Any Source Detailed category. But if I bought the Eduard edition of the kit, with the SAME resin and etch IN the box, I can currently enter it in the Standard Kit category. What with Eduard's Royal class boxings, Best Choice (CMK) boxings, MDC's Arado or the Montex Fury, there are more and more "standard kits" that are anything but. There's a danger that the category will become less a test of basic modelling skills and more a test of whether you can afford to buy (or get given for review) that "everything but the kitchen sink" superkit. I don't have an answer to offer, except perhaps defining the category as injection moulded plastic only. Obviously part of the skill in entering such a competition is choosing the right kit, and executing it well, but at present there does seem to be an anomaly if the same component parts can be entered in the SK and ASD categories depending on whether they came in the same box or not...
best regards, Matt (in the interests of full disclosure, that was my 1/24 Airfix Spitfire Vb RF-D in the larger-scale SK class at SMW this year)
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Post by martinhale on Nov 17, 2008 14:10:51 GMT
Thanks for raising this point Matt as it is one that hadn't occurred to me. I'm not sure that the number of kits effected by this is at a level to warrant a change just yet, but it is clearly something we have to have a think about. Like you I don't have an immediate answer to this question as where does one draw the line? many very affordable kits nowadays, particularly from limited run manufacturers have a simple brass fret and /or a few basic resin bits but are clearly not a suoerdetailing exercise. If we limit to purely injection plastic we run the risk of limiting the available subject matter in th SK classes and alienating the more esoteric modeller. It is also probable that anyone building something like one of the Eduard Royal Class kits is going to want to do a bit more to it than just do it straight from the boc (adding pipes and cabling etc). It is also unlikely that anyone would now source the parts available in a Royal Class kit separately as it would undoubtably cost much more to do it that way so we are probably only talking about people who already had the parts in stock. Running the competition has, and will always be, playing catch up as we have to try and respond to devlopments by both modellers and the manufaturers. We can to some extent try and anticipate the former as we are modellers ourselves but we have no chance of successfully doing the latter. To conclude; at this stage I think all we can do is to see whether this becomes a widespread enough issue to warrant a change and in the meantime I will try and think of a workable solution should this prove necessary.
Martin hale
Competition Secretary
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Post by cmatthewbacon on Nov 17, 2008 14:56:23 GMT
Thanks for the reply, Martin. I do agree that the number of kits that are full of the extra bits is relatively small, but if the only models that place in the medals ARE made from those kits, then there's a strong risk that people will think that there's no point in entering anything else, which will dramatically decrease the diversity of subject matter and the broad appeal of the classes. The SK classes should, as far as I can see be appealling to a wide range of modellers: we can't all scratch-build the innards of a 1/24th Harrier, but I think a lot of people feel able to build a kit out of the box to a reasonable standard. In the absence of any feedback on your build other than the placings (now there's another idea... ), the only point in entering something in competition is that you think that it has some chance of getting a placing. If you think that the only way to achieve that is with a resin-and-etch laden kit, then either you'll enter one - limiting the SK entries to those kits that ARE available with everything in one box - or you'll not bother entering at all. I can see the issues with limiting the materials in the SK class, but in that case how about introducing some "Classic" classes limited to standard injection moulded kits only, with no commercial aftermarket parts (except decals)? best regards, Matt
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Post by martinhale on Nov 17, 2008 17:42:40 GMT
Thanks Matt. As I said we will just have to see how or if this develops. At the moment we are right on the limit of space for the competition and are always struggling to get enough judges to do the classes we have and as this would effect all scales and categories there would have to be a very pressing need indeed for a change. However as I said I am keeping the situation under review. Sometimes these things develop and sometimes they fade away (the issue of 1/48 armour kits did not grow as I had expected it to for example). I obviously have yet to examine the the results of the competition but my feeling is that these "super kits" for want of a better word have not dominated the SK clases this year. I do however like the idea of A "Classic kit" class and have been toying with the idea for a while now and may well give it a trial as a one off class next year if space allows. If it proved popular it could be expanded to cover the main areas of the hobby.
Martin
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Post by NigelR on Nov 17, 2008 17:51:10 GMT
You've raised a good point but I think the practicality of the situation is that the only feasible distinction we can make will be for a standard kit as per the instructions. Martin's right - the manufacturers that do offer a bit more than just injected plastic don't offer the kind of detail that most of the ASD guys are looking for - usually it's an etched fret with an instrument panel, seat belts and perhaps some interior detail and an engine in resin. The ASD classes have some amazing exercises in superdetailing with all kinds of opened panels and internal detail. I suspect if you want to stand a chance of winning I suspect you've got to go to town.
If we are looking at judging general modelling skills rather than panel opening and detail set fitting, I would argue that including kits that have a small multi-media element is actually a better test, because in my view someone that can handle a bit of etch and resin along with plastic and make it all look like one model is showing a good degree of general modelling skills.
In my case, I would actually be penalized more than most if you adopted this approach. I model mainly WWI aircraft, most of which are multi-media limited run kits. If you said plastic only, most of what I build would have to compete in the ASD class, which IMO would be restrictive. I am not a superdetailer - I like to build mostly out of the box and would not match up to the ASD guys.
Finally, we did try running an "out of the box, plastic only" competition for a couple of years. This was the Trumpeter competition. AFAIK they don't do multi-media, they have a wide choice of good quality injection moulded kits and even sponsored the competition. It got dropped due to lack of support (which surprised me, as I thought it would have been popular). I think if you try to narrow things down too much, you will limit entries. I enjoy competing but am not a pot hunter, so I like to be able to enter something I want to build and keep on the shelf, rather than buy something specifically for the competion. I think the current classes work well.
Finally, you are right that if you really want to go pot hunting then you will choose something to win. But I think you are wrong in your theory that it's the resin and etch that makes a difference. In my experience of enetring competitions and judging a few, it's size, complexity and colour that has a bigger impact than the amount of cockpit detail.
Cheers,
Nigel
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Post by martinhale on Nov 17, 2008 17:58:45 GMT
As well as being the current holder of the poisoned chalice I have been judging at SMW for 15 years now and should have mentioned that the most common difference between winning and losing in all classes is basic construction and finishing. Beyond that choice of an unusual subject and/or colour scheme will help attract the judge's eye.
Martin
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Post by Julien on Nov 18, 2008 23:18:10 GMT
Thanks for bringing this up Matt as it was niggling me as well.
Thanks Martin for your answer. Yes its known about and we need to keep an eye on it. As someone who is fairly new to judging one thing I know we don't need at the moment is another class. We were a bit stretched as it was.
A watching breif need on this one.
Julien
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Post by The Detail Police on Nov 19, 2008 8:52:09 GMT
I too am concerned about the steady increase of multi-media kits into standard kit classes.
One of the great benefits of the traditional standard kit (i.e. just plastic parts) was that it required a slightly narrower range of modelling skills, which made them somewhat easier classes, more suitable for members who hadn't quite achieved the standards of the more complex classes. This broadened participation and made the competition more accessible. With the slow drift to multi-media this benefit is disappearing, which I think is a shame.
If multi-media kits are permitted then I think it's inevitable that competitive pressures will lead the SK classes to be filled with multi-media kits, because in my experience judges are impressed by models dripping with detail. This will result in the SK and ASD/ASC classes being technically indistinguishable and remove some of the diversity of the competition, which I think would be a loss.
My preference would be to change SK to 'Simple Kits' and exclude multi-media, which in my view better belongs in ASD.
P.S. I should say that I compete in and judge SK kit classes, so I'm not a neutral bystander.
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Post by martinhale on Nov 19, 2008 13:08:48 GMT
As has already been explained, I am keeping a watch on this issue to see how it develops. If I decide to stand for re-election at the next AGM, I shall be making a point of judging some of the SK classes to se for myself if a change is needed.
Martin
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Post by GR1 on Nov 19, 2008 19:18:05 GMT
How about 'Standard Kit' and 'Standard Kit - Multi Media'?
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Post by martinhale on Nov 20, 2008 10:44:19 GMT
The last thing we need is a raft of new classes. We would need a lot more judges and put more strain on the already overworked competition staff. If a change is needed multimedia will be moved from SK to ASD.
Martin Hale
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Post by The Detail Police on Nov 20, 2008 12:59:56 GMT
Martin
thanks for your reply to my post.
I hope you do stand again as Comp. Secretary so the calm efficiency I experienced this year is repeated.
DP
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Post by tigger on Nov 24, 2008 19:16:31 GMT
Hi Guys I have been watching this post and though it about time I replied here goes!
Hi Mathew I would like to take this chance to answer some of what I believe are perhaps pointed comments and set the record straight. Don’t get me wrong I believe in free speech but my responses are in direct reply to your post. It is not meant in any way to open up discussion or argument. Both the MDC's Arado and the Montex Fury in the Straight from the box class were mine! Yes, as you rightly pointed out both are or were for review however the Arado was bought out of my own pocket I paid full price and it was submitted as a Freelance article and it was published. That in turn paid for it. The Fury is a review sample but the simple fact that it was should not detract from the fact that it was built from the kit within the rules! I build for the enjoyment and if I think that it is worth entering then it is my prerogative as a paid up IPMS member to do so! Likewise the Fokker DR1 in the same class was bought from my own pocket. The F9-f2 was also mine again admittedly expensive but you will note that it was a sample! I build what I am sent for review most of the time so I don’t always build what I want! I certainly don’t build to catch someone’s eye! I choose to do reviews and as such I can give it up at any time I have no defining contract with anyone, at the end of the day I, like you have every opportunity to do reviews, our own magazine is I am sure always looking for reviewers so why don’t you give it a go? You make the point that it should be injection plastic only well as far as I am aware the resins used in the production of these kits is classed as a plastic and Paul Fisher at Fisher models injects the resin into the moulds. I don’t know if Darek at Montex does the same or if Bob at MDc does either. The Montex kit is all resin except the inter plane struts and gear legs. Trumpeter kits come with plastic some with resin most with etched brass, cast metal gear, vinyl tyres, acetate instruments etc does your suggestion include these kits? I don’t think there are now days many just plastic kits being produced except perhaps Revell and a few Haswegawa! At what point do we rule out a model because it uses something other than plastic? I believe the rules are clear enough for all to understand and if a model has extra parts in the boxing then so be it straight from the box is straight from the box using whatever the manufacturer has provided. I also entered the Trumpeter competition both years and yes I did make a point of trying to win it as there was such an amazing prize to be had. I won it the second year and can honestly say that the membership have shot themselves in the foot by not being keener to at least try.
If memory serves me then the Arado got gold. There was a Storch (Plastic model) silver and a Avia B534 Bi plane which got Bronze (from a resin kit)and there was an F-86 which got a commended (plastic kit)as did the Mig 19 (Plastic with etched clear acetate etc)and finallya Sptifire (again I believe a plastic kit with etched resin etc). You will see that the expensive kits didn’t necessarily win. I take every chance to judge at SMW competition and can corroborate what Martin has said that it all comes down to the build and mainly basics like wing alignment etc which is basic modelling skill. My Fokker didn’t win anything in its class however it won the Cross and Cockade large scale trophy which I was shocked at. I was so glad to see so many models in this class as in the past it has been under represented and this year I reckon was the largest contingent of models entered. With regards to Nigel’s comments on pot hunting I don’t go out and out to do that as I build for my own enjoyment if I win at competitions then that is a bonus I don’t get all upset like some do if I don’t win it’s just a hobby after all. You may have seen in a magazine the photo of me at Cornwall show where I took a quantity of awards but I went with the intention of putting the models on the club stand but when I got there the tables were almost full. I didn’t want to leave the models in the car so I entered them into the competition as a bit of fun. The editor published it as a bit of fun at my expense he is a good mate and we are always taking the P~#* out of each other and this was his was of getting his own back for a little bit of my sarcasm toward s him. Any way cheers for now and a big thank you to Martin and his dedicate dteam for their hard work well done!
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Post by cmatthewbacon on Dec 1, 2008 13:04:19 GMT
Apologies, Tigger - my comments were in no way intended as "pointed" or addressed at anyone in particular - I wasn't aware that the Arado and the Fury were even made by the same person!. I think if you read my post again, you'll see that my main point was the discrepancy between the exact same _parts_ being eligible for the standard kit class if they come in the same box, but not if you purchase them separately; my other point was that if we want to encourage people to enter, enjoy and learn from the competition, then it needs to be at least theoretically possible to win with any kit that's entered - and as you point out, there was plenty of styrene that got noticed by the judges. I just felt that it was worth flagging up a concern that I felt, and I've heard others raise (some in conversations over the comp tables this year), in the interests of helping make the appeal of the competition as wide as possible... Anyway, please be assured that my post was in no way a personal jibe at you! I've always been a big fan of your work, and it's been an inspiration to me...
bestest, M.
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Post by tigger on Dec 2, 2008 10:05:49 GMT
Hi Matt thank you for the kind response I appreciate the fact that the orignal comments were not pointed. Perhaps it is me getting a little paraniod when, as I stated, "it is a hobby!" I think that your point about the contents of the box should be covered by the rule that the Judges are allowed to ask to see the kit instructions if we want. I was lucky enough to go to the USA this year on holiday and managed to tie it in with the IPMS Nationals there. One point of their competition is that standard kit classes must have the instructions displayed with the model. Perhaps that is one thing that Martin could possibly consider for future to avoid any possible descrepencies? In regards to the competitions being winable I believe that every model entered and every modeller has the same chance at winning. My own experience of the first thing I ever won at the Nationals many years ago was a 1/72 Bell X-1 from Hobby craft. An awful kit and up against about forty other beautiful models but win it did. I was shocked and inspired to continue and push my own bounderies as far as possible. As I now write for a couple of magazines I now have limited time to do kits and as such I tend to keep them from the box. The big thing that I believe wins today is the artistry of the finish, most of us can manage to get the wings on squarely and do a resonable paint scheme. Remember this is a visual art form after all! This I believe was the largest number of models in the large scale from the kit class I have ever sen indeed bigger than the Amercian class which I entered. I was told they liked claenly built and painted models so I took my derelict Yak 18 to buck the trend. She got a Bronze. In closing flagging up the concerns of the masses is one of the reasons for this forum and as such and the masses have the right to correspond here however like the masses of the electorate of the country when push comes to shove they don't want to be heard, thank you for bringing the point to air. All the very best John P.S. I really appreciate the final comment it is nice to hear some feedback.
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