Phantom RF-4X

[kitspackman]

Has anyone ever built one of these devices?

I'm still not sure if it, or they, ever existed, let alone flew, but there seems to be some truth in the rumours. I have a very well done article on the aircraft in a 1970s-80s era US modelling aviation magazine, plus the conversion kit put out around the same time period, but I have yet to finish the model. Mine is based on a Hasegawa F-4E (I think....) and I don't have the monster nose fitted yet.

At Telford I asked the visiting Isreali Branch guys about it and they looked at me as if I'd dropped in from a different planet.

I'll still build the thing, me being me, even if the real ones never existed, but I wondered if anyone else had ever done one.

[neilscrim]

Was the RF-4X the phantom equipped with the HIAC camera? If so the IDF had 2( i think) of them:

www.flickr.com/photos/brewbooks/468987245/

BTW Kit, here's something for you...

[kitspackman]

Neil,

Excellent link, thank you, I've not seen those pics before. They look as if they were taken at the IAF Museum near Beer Sheva, with all the other IAF stuff around it.

I'm still trying to figure out where the F-4X/RF-4X started and F-4E(S) models stopped. The full blown RF-4X was to have much larger intakes and conformal tanks on top of the fuselage to give M 2.7 capability, but that only seems to have got as far as the 'cardboard and masking tape' type of build as far as I can see.

I have got a B&W photo of the USAF test ship carrying the HIAC camera pod externally, and it has to be the BIGGEST F-4 centre-fuse store you've ever seen!

I'm also trying to figure out where the pic on my original thread has gone, perhaps Mossad raided Imageshack???

I like the RAF OV-10D yes, or was it an OV-10K? I think it was at Telford for the 'RAF 100' event wasn't it?

[neilscrim]

I think it was at Telford for the 'RAF 100' event wasn't it?

Nope, only finished it on saturday.

If you did see it at Telford that's scary as it means someone else has built one and has got the same 'strange' sense of humour as me

I posted it on Hyperscale a couple of days ago but that's its only public outing to date...

As for the HIAC, yeah, it was a B-I-G pod, I remember seeing a photo. Somewhere in my references I've got a photo of the IDF F-4E(S). If I stumble on it I'll let you know.

And Mossad? Well, they get everywhere....

[kitspackman]

Neil,

Dec 1, 2008 18:30:54 GMT @neilscrim said:

I think it was at Telford for the 'RAF 100' event wasn't it?
Nope, only finished it on saturday.

If you did see it at Telford that's scary as it means someone else has built one and has got the same 'strange' sense of humour as me

Hmm, did you post it anywhere else? I'm certain I've seen piccies of it in the last few days, and I've never been on Hyperscale. Maybe someone hoiked the piccie off there and posted in 'What If'?

I love the idea anyway, the Bronco was almost designed for that sort of thing.

[neilscrim]

Wha hey! Your picture's returned, obviously Mossad have passed it for publication

As for the Bronco appearing elsewhere, nope I've only posted here and Hyperscale.

So if someone's lifted it and put it elsewhere......

If they'd just asked i'd have happily given approval to repost it.

(Slipping into grumpy old man mode) ... I don't believe it!

Geez, nothing's bl**dy sacred anymore.

P.S. I suppose plagarism is the sincerest form of flattery...

[COLIN SHIPTON-KNIGHT]

Kit,

I can remember coming across an article about HIAC camera, and the development of Phantom mods for it....

Where the hell did I put it...?

Remind me via email, I will try and find, been on the back burner so far as not big Israeli fan.....

Bugger, where did I put it....

Kit, do it... I have never seen a model of it done, and lets face it, it would generate questions.....

Colin

[kitspackman]

Neil,

I found the pics in the 'What If?' web site, here

www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,11141.120.html

The guy posted them mentions it came from 'HS' but I hand't a clue what meant.

Colin,

As I recall the article I had was in an issue of 'Airfile', a very short lived but superbly put together US mag. I have most of the issues filed somewhere, I just can't find them.

One has THE best article on the RB-57F I've ever come across, just up our street!

I'll dig the part-built model out and get on with it. I think I have the USAF F-4D test ship part done too, to carry the monster HIAC pod. They'd make a good pair.

[neilscrim]

Having looked at the thread he did credit my name and where he found it so I'm a happier bunny now

Thanks for the link, some interesting stuff there...

[Julien]

This was put into Israeli serivce. Three IAF F-4Es were modified to carry a smaller HIAC-1 camera inside a lengthened Phantom nose and also featured modified engine inlets and other modifications for enhanced performance. Known as the F-4E(S) (S=special), F-4X or RF-4X, the first of these aircraft was delivered sometime in late 1975. Mod was done as the original camera in a belly pod caused too much drag.

Airdoc do this conversion in 1.48 www.hannants.co.uk/search/?FULL=AIRR4812 I do believe there was a parajon one in 1.72 & !/48 though I am told it is not as accurate as the AirDoc one.

The black was painted on the recce nose to make it look like a normal F-4E. These were fitted with the extended refueling probe to take drouge refueling though the exact date is unknown. Most of the missions for this aircraft are still restricted. It is believed they did recce the Iraqi Osirak nuclear plant in Bahgdad before the leveled it.

Julien

[reccephreak]

There are two walkarounds of the F-4E(S) (correct designation) on Prime Portal:

www.primeportal.net/hangar/isaac_gershman/f-4es_498/

www.primeportal.net/hangar/sariel_stiller/f-4es_496/

HTH

Larry

[COLIN SHIPTON-KNIGHT]

Kit,

Cannot find the document that I remembered, so giving up, which hopefully guarantees that I find it next week.....

HIAC, what an interesting subject, with much known, and yet so much, unknown...

HIAC was pretty much a ground breaking camera, which essentially involved folded optics, a well known principle and used in so many ways nowadays.

There is quite a bit on the net, see a few bits below. The camera was basically facing forward, with folded optics and a 'lens' mechanism that could be rotated from port to starboard, let alone vertical, in the nose. Hence being so big and heavy, with all the problems that brought to the aircraft's performance, in a pod, or in the modified nose of a Phantom...

That it was built or flown is not in dispute, how capable it was, and how the Israelis got it so easily from America, let alone what they used them for... Those are the really interesting questions....?

F-4X
Proposed high-performance reconnaissance version with HIAC-1 LOROP camera for Israel developed under program Peace Jack in conjunction with General Dynamics. Water injection was projected to give the aircraft a top speed in excess of Mach 3 (over 2,000 mph (3,200 km/h) at high altitudes). The water would be contained in a pair of 2,500 US gal (9,600 l) conformal tanks on the sides of the fuselage spine. State Department became worried about developing an aircraft with performance similar to SR-71 Blackbird and offensive capability beyond anything in USAF inventory for a foreign customer and forbade its export. The aircraft was then modified to RF-4X with the camera in the nose which removed offensive capability. However, USAF withdrew from the project over concerns that a high-performance Phantom would jeopardize funding for F-15 Eagle. Without USAF financial support, Israel settled for a simpler and less expensive F-4E(S).

www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/hangar/2848/rf4.htm

www.f-4.nl/f4_15.html

www.spyflight.co.uk/condor2.htm

The most drastic modifications were performed to three IDF-AF F-4Es that were rebuilt to the "RF-4E(S) Peace Jack" reconnaissance configuration by General Dynamics (GD). In the late 1960s, the Israelis wanted to obtain the Martin RB-57F long-range, high-altitude reconnaissance aircraft from the US, but the US State Department refused to give permission. In compensation, in 1971 the Israelis were allowed to buy a pod-mounted version of the long-range GD "High Altitude Camera (HIAC) for use with Israeli Phantoms.

The HIAC was most useful at altitudes above the ceiling of an ordinary Phantom, and in 1972 the Israelis asked GD what might be done to improve matters. GD came back with a concept for a highly modified Phantom provisionally designated the "F-4X", featuring J79s modified by GD to incorporate water-methanol injection, allowing the aircraft to reach Mach 2.4 and an altitude of 23,800 meters (78,000 feet).

The GD engineering team received a stock F-4E in December 1974 and mocked up the revised engine installation, but they needed USAF assistance to do the job, and the Air Force was not enthusiastic about the F-4X. USAF brass worried that Congress might see it as a cheaper alternative to the McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle, then emerging as the service's new heavy fighter. GD finally abandoned the engine update effort. The Israelis settled for fitting a highly modified nose containing the HIAC to the F-4E, and so the Peace Jack RF-4E(S) was born.

The HIAC is mounted on a rotating assembly, with a fixed downward-staring camera mounted behind it. The Peace Jack Phantoms are also believed to sometimes carry electronic intelligence (ELINT) pods on stores pylons. One of the three Peace Jack Phantoms was apparently lost in action in 1982.

www.f-4.nl/f4_29.html

Colin

[COLIN SHIPTON-KNIGHT]

Oops,

Forgot to mention this thought....

Look at HIAC in a pod, think about how it is laid out with camera and large directional lens in front, dictating how the pod looks...



Then look at contemporary recce pods, like RAPTOR, and maybe you start to see resemblances.......



Same kind of system, just nowadays using electro optics and data linking equipment in the back of the pod........

Bearing in mind comments about how the HIAC pod affected a Phantoms performance, does kinda make you think about the performance of the Tornado GR 4A.....

Colin

[Julien]

Colin,

the tornado was specifically designed to carry the stores where the camera is now. Would suggest that recce pod is less draggy than a pair of JP-233's

Julien

Julien

[kitspackman]

Thanks guys, I just got back on here after an extended Xmas break.

I've got quite a bit of stuff on the F-4E(S) or whatever it's designated, but that's not quite what I had in mind. The full blown F-4X with the scarfed intakes and the conformal tanks is at the other end of the scale too. I'm intending, and have started some years ago, the 'middle road' approach which was the last flying version built before they downgraded the idea to the (S) version.

There are quite a few pics of the existing (S) in the IDF Museum which give good pointers and I'm hoping that my current magazine purge in my house will show up the small batch of Aerofiles with the article included.

I'll report back when I've dug my way out this pile of mags......