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Post by fastcat on Nov 26, 2013 13:34:23 GMT
My personal view over the use of cast metal(where provided in a kit)for such parts as the chassis, floor pan etc. which could be construed as structural is that where the metal version confers no distinct advantage over plastic (it's presumably more convenient for the manufacturer or has been transferred from one of their ready-builts), it's OK to use especially when it's painted over and impossible to distinguish.
As Hazmod points out, this is really difficult to police as some kits have a larger proportion of metal over plastic or resin which isn't detectable unless the judge knows the make-up of the kit. Maybe some relaxation in the rules is needed rather than turning a blind eye and hoping that every modeller will declare a possible breach of the rules.
Dave
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MikeC
Moderator
Too many SIGs for my own good!
Posts: 804
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Post by MikeC on Nov 26, 2013 15:56:51 GMT
Whilst I'm aware of why IPMS formed and the "not proper modellers" attitude, as outlined by Edgar above, I now think of the word "plastic" in IPMS as signifying one of its other meanings, ie "relating to sculpture and modelling" (Chambers dictionary).
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Post by hazmod on Nov 26, 2013 18:19:32 GMT
I agreed with fastcar, You looked this image for Tamiya, 1/24 Scale, Impul Z kit with die cast floor panel. Luis Gil Gimeno has breached his model Impul Z with straight box at Class 47, 1/29 Scale, up to and including 1/21 scale, SK, with break this regulation because This is die cast panel included his model but should be ASD and ASC class. He was cheat! When I asked Modelex organister over invited with IPMS members, and I has reads the regulations,1/43 Scale, Plastic model cars not allowed to competition national Modelex scale model cars. Resin bodies and White Metal bodies with model cars still allowed to enter to competition. I has done it with resin body with my model Lancia Lc 1 GR 6 on 2000. and two 1/43 Scale model cars with well results at competition. I will contact with competition secretary over advice on further but no rush it I won't enter to my Peugeot 307 CC for SMW Competition on further, because curse of French I have reads the regulation at SMW competition. I know it Attachments:
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Post by NoelSmith on Nov 26, 2013 20:19:40 GMT
Edgar, I can see where you are coming from with your comments. I have been building models since my school days in the 50's, and been there done that, and got the tee shirt with all the animosity from groups who see themselves as 'superior' to plastic modellers. There were certain factions at the MEE back in the 60's and 70's were rife with attitude towards our side of the hobby so I am well aware of what you speak of. Not surprised it went down the pan eventually. So yes I can sympathise with your views. Personally, having been a long standing member since 1974, I do not see that changing the name to International Scale Modellers Society would be a betrayal to older members, but a reflection as to how the hobby has both progressed and developed over the years. As I said in my post that this is purely a personal view of mine, so we will have to agree to differ in opinion on that one! You and I both know how things have developed within the hobby, but as you say there is still this perception in many outside quarters that plastic modellers just simply stick plastic kits together.
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edgar
Kit Basher
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Post by edgar on Nov 27, 2013 11:56:03 GMT
I sometimes wonder if the advocates of a name-change ever stop to consider what would be needed. Would the change to a Limited Company's name entail legal expenses, due to the use of a solicitor? I don't know, since I've never checked, but, if so, it seems to be a rather unnecessary waste of resources (but that's just my personal view.) Would the British part of the Society insist that the Americans, Canadians, Australians, and all of the other foreign Branches follow suit, and change, as well? And, if they refused, would that mean that we would have to drop the "I" from the title and revert to "British" (or English, Welsh and Irish, if Scotland goes independent?) "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" still applies, as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by NoelSmith on Nov 27, 2013 16:58:41 GMT
You have made some fair comments there that I will have to concede to with regard to the legal/expense position that may be incurred with a UK Branch name change, and also with the implications with regard to IPMS Branches in other countries, that thinking about it you quite rightly brought to light. Like I said it would be probably be opening a can of worms. Thanks for the feed back Edgar. It has made for an interesting, lively debate about this particular subject, and enabled us both to make made our respective views.
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edgar
Kit Basher
Posts: 91
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Post by edgar on Nov 28, 2013 0:15:00 GMT
It has made for an interesting, lively debate about this particular subject, and enabled us both to make our respective views. And keep it civil, which is not always the case on other sites.
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Post by tony on Nov 28, 2013 9:50:11 GMT
This is an interesting debate and may be things need to be clarified. A few years ago there was a rule change to reflect the way different mediums were being use more in the competition at ScaleModel World. And for a few years now this has been the case for class 46 in the civilian vehicles and for certain figure classes.
• Civilian Vehicles Class 46 and Figures Classes 54 to 61, 73 and 74 only - due to the preponderance on the market of white metal kits over plastic in these particular areas of the hobby, white metal kits shall be allowed in these classes only.
This is an exception to the main rule of.
• All models are to be constructed as stated and defined. Metal foil, wood, veneer, paper, cloth, decal or any other material may be used to cover the model to represent a particular finish or to construct detail items. Such coverings or details must be cosmetic and not structural.
If there is a move to have more die cast parts used in civilian vehicles then this would require a rule change in the competition. A motion would have to be raised at the AGM and the issue could be debated. I know on this forum there have been comments made by modellers who always frequent the competition and their views should be taken into account. I am only the adjudicator of the rules and it is the members of the society that drive the competition on how they would like to see the rules applied.
Edgar’s points were interesting as I can remember the model engineering exhibitions back in the 80’s when the plastic side was looked upon un favourably by the model engineers. But that show succumbed to history and the nationals or Scalemodel World as it is now called still goes from strength to strength. In recent years the London Model engineering show has come onto the scene again and my club and several other IPMS branches attend this and the same attitude is still there from several model engineering clubs. But we are trying to break this down and to get these narrow minded people that we can all produce models in whatever medium and these can be displayed side by side.
Tony
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Post by fastcat on Nov 28, 2013 19:15:39 GMT
Thanks for your input and advice Tony. I'll draft a motion for an alteration to the rules for consideration at the AGM as you suggest. Hopefully it should ease things for modellers and judges alike. Might run it past you first if that's OK.
Best regards Dave
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Post by John Tapsell on Nov 28, 2013 19:50:06 GMT
Well - technically speaking we haven't been the 'International Plastic Modellers Society' for a good few years.
We are officially operating as 'IPMS (UK) - The Society for Scale Modellers'.
That change was made years ago to reflect the fundamental changes in our hobby and to emphasise the importance of 'scale' rather than the specific material being used.
Regards, John
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Post by hazmod on Nov 28, 2013 21:34:12 GMT
I'm agreed with fastcar and tony. Tamiya,Rossi and other manufactures has had supplied with die cast pieces with factory only. Not allowed used build model cars or Motorcycle with full die cast build from factory. I'm awareness this factory die cast panel has fitted with model cars. I has build my 1/43 scale, Ferrari F643 from Rosso, and It has supply with die cast monocoque and engine and gearbox piece only, and all plastic parts and photo etches parts I will build my Nissan Impul Z JGTC on further. See and wait Attachments:
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Post by NoelSmith on Nov 30, 2013 19:16:40 GMT
Thanks for the heads up John, on what banner IPMS UK is officially operating under. Looking at Tony's post, maybe it is time that the rules were overhauled to reflect and emphasise that we are seen primarily as 'scale' modellers rather than plastic modellers. As I see it the rules could be relaxed in many ways and allow more materials other than plastic to be used as long as the models are purely static fine scale models. Primarily we would be talking about the use of wood and metals not being purely used for cosmetic cladding any more. More and more kits are becoming hybrids with more use of metal in their construction. Under current IPMS rules die cast metal is an absolute 'No No'. But a number of kits have die cast parts included that for all intents and purposes go together in a similar fashion to a plastic model. Some time ago at one of our Nationals there was an excellent scratch built Westland Whirlwind model in a large scale like 1/32nd that was disqualified because the model was built in plastic and skinned over with 0.25mm thin aluminium litho plate. I hasten to add that this model actually complied with IPMS Comp Rules in place at that time regarding cosmetic coverings. What was laughable was that in the same competition there were shed loads of 1/72nd aircraft loaded with white metal parts that costituted a big part of the actual build, like engines, props, undercarriage parts, ejector seats etc. All this was blissfully ignored and they were not disqualified. Maybe time for a rethink and bring the rules right up to date?
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Post by The Hooded Claw on Nov 30, 2013 21:49:20 GMT
How did this even become an issue?
Metal chassis have been around since the ‘60s why did it become an issue this week?
Actually don't tell me I'll just get mad!
Ian
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Post by fastcat on Nov 30, 2013 23:06:55 GMT
Hi THC Well I'll tell you anyway and if you don't want to get mad, don't read it .
Back in the '60s there were very few if any plastic or resin kits in the larger scales that contained die-cast or white metal castings. Gunze Sangyo is one of the few makers who dabbled in multi media kits and their output was relatively small. And that was in the '80s I think.
Nowadays there's a whole lot more available. Model Factory Hiro for example introduced far more new race car kits than any of the mainstream plastic kit manufacturers. Their kits vary in content from one subject to another and that poses a real problem for judges and competitors alike as the rules as they stand make some of them ineligible.
I can't see why the competition rules shouldn't evolve in keeping with current trends.
Best regards Dave
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Post by hazmod on Dec 1, 2013 6:28:59 GMT
I'm awareness this revolution model from Model Factory Hiro, MFH has very boldly and more refinement with new revolution model car with mixed pieces on this Century. THC, do n't panic, and do n't read it I know, All metal kit still not allowed to SMW Competition because It was big die cast body works with pre painted. My brother brought me for his Christmas present to us, called Revell, 1/18 Scale, Thunderbird model car. It was ready painted and trim fitted this body. I can't make it and re worked this car on further, as I won't I'm situation over new revolution model car from Japan, and Japan car modellers still crazy and more boldly with new revolution model cars in Japan If competitor will remove pieces of metal from 1/72 scale die cast aircraft and fitted with plastic model aircraft, What is you think about
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