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Post by hustler on Oct 11, 2014 2:39:20 GMT
What colours were used on RAF fighters 1940. In particular, I am building the excellent TRUMPETER 48th scale kit of the Westland Whirlwind Mk 1 and thinking of building the model as HE-V. I have the excellent book, 4+ Publication and on page 7 a photo of HE-V is shown in what appears to be camouflage that is a DARKER Earth Brown and DARKER Dark Green. Using IPMS Stockholm Colour Reference Chart:.www.ipmsstockholm.org/colourcharts/stuff_eng_colourcharts_uk. The table 1938 - 1945 shows dark earth to be FS30118- Hu29 or XF52 or Gunze H72. Dark Green to be FS34079 - Hu116 or XF61 or Gunze H73.
My question is: HE-V appears to be a "darker shade" of camouflage when compared to photos of P7121, HE-A on page 6 (for people who have the 4+ Publication). Could HE-A be grey/green rather than brown /green?
If I am wrong with my intrepretation in the above mentioned please correct me. Looking forward to your response, in advance thanks for your information.
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Post by acebain on Oct 27, 2014 23:37:21 GMT
Hi Hustler, you've hit on a potential minefield with this one! I would advise caution about straying from the "standard" colours quoted as being used in any scheme, even if they look different to what you'd expect in photos. Leaving aside ambient light conditions when the photo was taken, there are all sorts of variables that can affect the way different colours appear in black & white photos - colour filters in particular are/were often used to emphasise elements of the photo (e.g. sky or clouds or foliage) and these can drastically affect the relative lightness/darkness of one colour over another. Add to that, the chemical processes used in developing and printing the photos can also emphasise or de-emphasise certain aspects of the exposed film. Even when looking at colour photos, the colours are noticeably dodgy at that time and so unreliable as a reference for something as fickle as paint colours.
As for the IPMS Stockholm Colour References - I've spent quite a bit of time researching paint colour "equivalents" and although I use these references myself, and would recommend them too, there is a caveat; I've noticed several so-called equivalents in those lists that I know for a fact are nothing like each other! On my own copies of those lists I mark the ones that I know to be "off", and have a highlighted note at the top of the page warning about the unreliability of some of the entries.
If you know the colours are supposed to be (for example) RAF "Dark Earth" and "Dark Green" (which should be correct in 1940) then that applies to all RAF aircraft at that date. The grey and green "day fighter scheme" didn't come in until later on in 1941. For a good match I would stick to known reliable examples of the colours in question from major manufacturers like Xtracolour, White Ensign, or Humbrol (and Vallejo do a WWII RAF colour set which I have heard is good, but I can't vouch for it personally). Some of the more generic (non-UK) manufacturers have rather dodgy estimations of what is Dark Earth or Dark Green. Federal Standard (FS) numbers like 30118 and 34079 are definitely not reliable for these sort of colours - they are excellent for USAAF or US Navy/US Marines colours, as that was what they were developed for, but not for British colours (unless for vehicles/aircraft imported from the US). We didn't have such a useful standard over here at that time, and some colours have very dubious descriptions making proper matching very difficult. The only sure way to know for sure what the colour should look like is using paint chips (if you can get hold of them) or looking at an example of the real thing.
I won't even start on the "scale colour" debate which adds another dimension to the whole question of "what colour should it be?" - look it up and you'll see what I mean! In the end of the day, as with so much else in modelling, if it looks right, it is right! I would say that your own judgement is as much part of the product as anything else. I've seen models produced by "experts" that have questionable colour choices used on them - nobody's perfect, right!
I hope this clarifies rather than confuses!
Best regards, Alistair.
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Post by hustler on Oct 28, 2014 22:17:40 GMT
Alistair, thank you very much for clarifying this touchy subject. With the above in mind my intention is to use TAMIYA colours Brown XF52, Green XF61, and Sky XF21. Your thoughts please. I have not seen real paint chips , so I rely on reference information and people like your self who have also spent time researching. To Me, these seem to be the best match in colours. I will keep in mind VALLEJO and the others. I am aiming to paint the model soon and for the time it takes for a parcel to arrive from England I hope to have paint on the model . So I may use VALLEJO for my second bird. Thanks again.
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Post by acebain on Oct 30, 2014 0:27:35 GMT
I'm sorry Hustler but I don't have those particular Tamiya colours to compare directly with paint that have and I know to be a good choice. I'm assuming from what you say that you are on the other side of the 'pond' - I hadn't appreciated that or I wouldn't have been so quick to recommended the UK brands. I've looked at the Tamiya colour charts to "eyeball" the colours you intend using (although this is not a good way to do it) and I'd guess that XF21 "Sky" looks more like "Duck Egg Green" which could be an acceptable alternative, but the other two are not even in the ball park. Although the descriptions are the similar to the colours you're looking for they're not the RAF colours. I've done some searching and it appears there are various articles on how to mix the colours you're looking for using Tamiya colours, but again these are likely to be rather subjective. Some sources even mention some of the new colours (XF81, XF82, XF83) are specifically for Tamiya's Spitfire, but if they are then they'd be the "day fighter scheme"; but if so, the green (XF81) should be the right colour for the earlier scheme too. It may also be that XF76 "Gray Green" could be a better match for the early war "Sky" colour you're looking for. That just leaves the Dark Earth to sort out. Looking around a bit more, I've just noticed that Tamiya's 'AS' spray paint range have the same colours for the RAF Grey/Green scheme (AS30, AS31, AS32), and also a very credible looking Dark Earth, AS22! I think that could be your answer, assuming you can get hold of it. If not, assuming you can get it , the Vallejo RAF colour set might be your best option. This link might help too: Britmodeller - RAF Colours WW2I hope that is useful for you. Best regards, Alistair.
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Post by hustler on Oct 31, 2014 2:06:09 GMT
Hi Alistair, ooooh, I have opened up a can of worms havent I. Thanks so much for the trouble you have gone to replying, it is greatly appreciated. I take note of your research information provided and now will need to see what colours I have in stock you have recommended. I think time out is required so I can enquire into the colours you mentioned. Thanks so much from the kangaroo country, regards Bill
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Post by acebain on Oct 31, 2014 15:22:38 GMT
No problem Bill, a pleasure to share the information. Sorry for assuming you were "the other side of the pond", just a guess really! Nice to know you're "down-under". Britmodeller, the link I gave you, is an excellent source of expertise on these kinds of things - there are some very knowledgeable guys on there. I always think that modelling is about authenticity (well mine is anyway); when something doesn't look right a little digging usually proves that it isn't, so I've often looked far and wide to get information about stuff that seems to be off the mark. There are a few minefields out there, just like the one you've stumbled into. Another one that touched on your subject is the debate on the correct colour for "Sky type S" - there was a lot of debate about that a while back, so some searching might uncover some of that, although I think that the offerings of the paint manufacturers has come a long way. Just watch out for those "equivalents", they'll come back to bight you if you don't verify that they are correct! Best regards, Alistair.
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Post by hustler on Nov 3, 2014 0:22:27 GMT
Great to have your experience at hand Alistair. Being in Aus makes it harder to have accurate reference easily available or the people who may have worked on the equipment. Tech notes / references help a lot when you can get access to the information. If I may ask, is it possible to get a copy of your paint cross chart sent to my email of katalina@iprimus.com.au. That's if you feel comfortable to do so. Many thanks Bill
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Post by hustler on Nov 4, 2014 0:36:26 GMT
Hi Alistair, to let you know my computer has crashed and is unserviceable till repaired. I'll contact you again when back on deck, regards Bill
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Post by hustler on Nov 7, 2014 7:25:52 GMT
Back on deck, thankfully. An electrical storm burnt out the modem.
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