tim
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Post by tim on Feb 28, 2010 10:42:27 GMT
Expanding on the discussion stalled in 'another thread' I still think this matter requires discussion as it seriously reflects on the future of plastic modelling as a hobby.
The price of oil has been quoted factor in the price hikes we have seen in recent times coupled with the fluctuating exchange rates but realistically at what point does your hobby become too expensive to keep up with?
As a side issue Airfix and Revell have increased the amount and series levels of kits they issue as 'complete to finish' or Starter kits. Do these kits actually help anyone into the hobby? If I were starting out and was told everything was included only to find those curious pots of...erm? paint? were supposed to cover the kit. I think I would feel conned.
Tamiya have in recent times been expanding their product range in special respects to IJN subjects in 1/350th. There is no doubting these are great kits and considering the manufacturers home base it has been an education in the types and styles of ships the Japanese had in the Pacific war. However all things have their limits. When you are on a budget and considering the space these kits take up when complete you are faced with some hard decisions. Do you build a capital ship costing you under £60 which is big and impressive and has all the high mould quality you would expect. Or do you pay £130 for a kit half the size and no less detailed? At what point do you justify paying twice the price for half the size of plastic?
AMT. Where do I start? For the sci fi modeller this is one of the few mainstream kit makers you can find. Having seen the latest re releases of the Star Trek range and being fully aware of how small a number of parts and lack of complexity there is in them I can only conclude that they are making a huge mark up on every kit sold at over £25 a throw. These moulds have been about some time and worse still if the new Star Trek franchise rolls on after the film all these kits will, in terms of the franchise, never have existed. The link therefore is as strong to the new film as the issue of the Virago was for the Star Wars series.
There is no doubt that prices not only will increase but will become a major factor in the hobby from this point forward. High prices and/or poor quality aimed at the lower/starter end of the market will drive potential newcomers away. For those of us locked into the hobby the question remains at what point do you stop seeing the potential of the finished peice in picking up a kit and start to consider the real contents of the box as a few sprues of plastic priced at over £10 or more per sprue?
Discuss.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2010 11:14:57 GMT
Am I getting value for money?
I feel we must look at this question from several angles. For the young modeller tottering on the verge of a new hobby with a limited income, what do they model? ... If they're buying the kit themselves, do they choose the cheapest and less complicated kits which certainly limit their choice somewhat? If family members buy the kit for them as a gift, do they take the child to the shop or do they buy what they think will be the correct kit within their budget and the child's interest? As a well established modeller of the older persuasion, and being in a relatively advantaged position of having a well stocked stash, I know what I want and sometimes will be prepared to pay a high price for a kit which interests me. As a basic comment to the question above, no, I don't think we're getting value for money and I don't think it's going to get any better. As a youngster, I had the regular opportunity to spend my weekly pocket money on Airfix kits. My weekly income being 2/6 which equates to 15p in todays money. Not a King's ransom, but in 1958, you could buy an Airfix aircraft kit for 1/6 which is less than 10p. But times change, no good wearing rose coloured glasses for evermore. When oil prices rise, we pay dearly for everything, when the price drops, do we get a reduction in price ... No! Manufacturers are in business to make a profit, the question which should be asked is just how much profit is in a kit? My answer is fairly simple, I vote with my wallet. It may not make the manufacturers cringe, but if everyone did the same thing, maybe we'd see a difference in kit prices, or would we simply see the manufacturers cutting back on what they produce?
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tim
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Post by tim on Feb 28, 2010 11:41:23 GMT
What is happening now is something the industry did not expect or cater for where first time modellers are concerned but it reflects the viewpoint many of us I think hold in that if we actually really want it we will attempt to justify its price. I have one such article now sat in my loft that was so expensive that every time I see it I am too terrified to remove it from the box and attempt a build! (Fine Molds Millenium Falcon in case you are wondering)
Back when the vast majority of us started plastic modelling there was one big player. Airfix. The first kit you built and attempted yourself was most likely WW2 and series one. The one machine that makes us still gasp when ever we see one? Spitfire. Shift up a gear to todays generation. Mention model kits to them. Yes they heard of airfix.....But have you seen the latest kit from Games Workshop? GW are a classic example of very clever marketing targetted and fully supported at all levels at the younger 'modeller' with an end purpose to play a game. If we get VERY lucky that may bleed over into mainstream modelling.
Now are GW kits value for money? In a number of circumstances the answer very much has to be yes, despite the face value of what you see in the box. The kits are to most levels simple and flash free but the planning at moulding stage would give the Tamigawa crowd pause for thought. For a young customer they can produce a satisfying basic kit with few skills and get as much or little in store help and support as they need to make it look good. And why I really say its value for money is that if you are in any doubt you can go back to the store and they will make sure you can complete the kit to a satisfying level.
It is fair to say no such after sales support exists with another manufacurer so does a parent wishing to show a youngster the hobby buy an Airfix/Revell all in one and sit the kid in a room on their own or do they take them to a dynamic outlet like GW and pay that little bit more but get the satisfactory result that was desired? (Actually as a side issue I wonder if all GW staff have to comply with this working with kids qualification? :S.
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Post by dvenn on Feb 28, 2010 20:18:17 GMT
Just look at the price of the Trumpeter 1/48 Fencer, £74 for a 1/48 kit, and from what i can gather on various forums its not that accurate. I have a feeling in some respects we are being conned into beliving that its all down to the recession, look at SMW it was well supported again this year and i believe the traders did better than ever. I feel that the kit manufactures have realised that the hobby is in good shape and have like most manufactures regardless of product, decided that they can charge what they like as people will buy it. Also while im well aware of the cost of the moulds ect if there was no market then these kits would not exist. When and if the recession recedes we will not see a reduction in price as if its selling now then why kick a gift horse in the mouth. I agree with Nick vote with your wallet and dont feel that any kit is a must have, just because its the latest thing, sooner or later you will find it for sale at some show at a lot less than you would have paid in the first place. Dave
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2010 20:26:37 GMT
... sooner or later you will find it for sale at some show at a lot less than you would have paid in the first place. Modelzone, two £50 kits being sold for £19.99 each. Did they sell in the numbers they were expected to originally? Whatever the answer to that question, good marketing from Modelzone, I actually bought one. Will I build it? ... let's just say at that price, the cab will be placed into the spares box as bits and pieces and I'll build the chassis as a donor for a resin kit.
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Post by voyager on Mar 1, 2010 9:14:22 GMT
I bought 2 of the Scanias, just because they were a bargain! One will be built fairly soon, the other saved for later. As for model kits being 'value for money', the only person who can determine that is the one buying the kit. If they have the money and want the kit, then they will buy it. I do wonder if some of the magazines hype certain kits before they come out and create a demand that may not otherwise be there but that is the same in all walks of life, it's called advertising (my wife is a sucker for it : . If a manufacturer can turn a very good profit on a few products, he may be willing to produce slower selling models too and they are in business to make a profit! The argument over whether Airfix should scrap the old kits is rather mute; if they are still selling, why should they? Someone is buying them, whether it's an experienced modeller looking for something to convert/detail/use in a diorama or a new young modeller's first kit, bought by themselves or for them, doesn't matter, it's a kit sold. I'm afraid I'm also going to risk a bit of wrath here too - I'm not bothered whether youngsters take up modelling or not! I build models for my pleasure, not to pass on the baton to a future generation. If they want to play computer games instead, let them! The vast majority of kits are sold to adults as they have the money to buy good quality stuff, therefore the kit manufacturers will bring out better models, knowing there is a market. This is a good thing (though we still need to push the truck modellers!!! ;D). Between the kits I have and the ones in production I would like, the hobby will last me a lifetime even if no new kits are made, so I don't actually care if there are no new 'starter kits' made. Very selfish (and you can tell I have no children) but honest. It also seems to me, 'new' modellers are actually adults anyway who have visited a show/seen a magazine/have a modelling friend and decided to have a go based on the incredible work they can see rather than 'I'm bored, what can I do - I'll buy a kit'. They aspire to build something really good, rather than modelling just to fill time. Look at the magazines out there. Two new ones launched last year. Someone realises the hobby is in good shape. I also think they (along with the Internet) are the reason the hobby is doing so well. They show fantastic models and how to achieve similar results - I know they are one of the reasons I got back into modelling. There has never been so much choice and quality around yet still there are complaints, just enjoy it, otherwise, what's the point ;D Finally, if 'you' (whoever) think there is so much profit being made by kit manufacturers, why don't you start your own business?
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Post by playtime on Mar 1, 2010 11:23:30 GMT
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tim
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Post by tim on Mar 1, 2010 12:49:58 GMT
(though we still need to push the truck modellers!!! ;D). I will volenteer for that.. I'm sure I can find a very high cliff somewhere...... Sadly with your senario and reaction, though I am really very unsurprised by it, will result in a dead hobby or one that is so expensive and elitist as to justify the very thing the IPMS is always, and to my mind with some justification, accused of. The reason I targeted starter kits is this. Not only are the moulds now very old but the inclusion of the mini paints of poor quality is not an attempt to get people to model kits but more to raise the price of an outdated item. In the long run its doing more harm than good. The fact they can sell these is not a positive comment when you consider repeat business. In fact some of these kits may actually be driving away potential new modellers once they see how awful the actual kit turns out when you use just the items provided. I was under the impression that it was the goal of the IPMS to promote the hobby. A good reason for doing this is to increase the amount of people actually buying kits and therefore also keeping the prices down based on turnover quantity. It would also better increase the chances of an expansion in subject matter. In the contracting senario you have painted we would all be building only Spitfires and Me109's because these two items are the staple output of almost every manufacturer who is mainstream today. Based on these two kits Airfix would be outgunned by every manufacturer you can name. And you can forget trucks..No one would bother. Magazines come and go with the wind. I used to buy them . I no longer do. Reason? £4 a pop for what is basically a big advertising blurb. The vast majority of articles are repeats of something previously released or tell you nothing new. The reason there are so many is that its easy money almost totally supported by advertising and with little need to produce much real content to get the punter to part with his cash. Its more a barometer of the advertising and publishing industry than it is of the health of the hobby. Oh and for Playtime's amusement, www.asterhobbies.co.uk/pages/price.htm
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Post by brianthemodeller on Mar 1, 2010 13:11:29 GMT
Are we getting value for money??? I am.
I spend, on average about £40 per model - that includes the base model, paint, plastic sheet & tube, decals and a display case.
£40 for a couple or three months of enjoyment isn't bad value. D**n sight cheaper than hiring DVDs or going to the football.
I am getting a tad cheesed off with reading threads where modellers whinge about how much the manufacturers want for the kits and how much the hobby is costing them.
If you don't like it, take up knitting - wool is only £2.50 a ball at Aldi!
Brian
ps And as for the high cliff, Tim, I can only hope I am stood in the queue to jump just behind you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2010 13:12:10 GMT
... I was under the impression that it was the goal of the IPMS to promote the hobby. I certainly do, and in general, so does the Society as a whole. But we have no control over what the manufacturers release and how much they release it for. Really, so (in your opinion) we should just forget about that portion of the hobby then? ... so long as you're comfortable with your particular interest and viewpoint? ... and that's promoting the hobby? Ah well, that's me looking for something to do. I suppose I could just fall in with the idea that this Society is purely for aircraft modellers? ... which it isn't. Tim, I've promoted the truck model side of the hobby for over 20 years. Have I given up? ... certainly not, but with a viewpoint such as yours, makes me wonder why I bother at times?
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Post by playtime on Mar 1, 2010 13:19:39 GMT
tim haha Trumped! I take it thats the sort of loco that used to pull real trains with real people around the likes of Blenheim Park (wonder if that's still there). I was going to enter mine at SMW2010 though - it's mostly plastic! Er... if you count fibre glass, epoxy resin and polystyrene foam... *cough* As for prices, range of kits, etc? It's a 'free market'. Don't buy the crap kits for inflated prices and they will eventually get the idea or go bust. Economics apparently works in cycles. It will swing back in the customers favour at some point. Until then, build your stash and put some real loft insulation in.
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tim
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Post by tim on Mar 1, 2010 13:37:33 GMT
;D Not in the queue Brian.. not a truck modeller.. Mind the drop... If you feel you are getting good value for your money no problem. I am here raising the point about kits which have 18 parts and sell for £40 and no way can you get 3 months worth of hobby out of that. Nick. If the society could prove its case and grow to be inclusive of all modelling genres and sell itself to what is actually a very introverted hobby there is no way the manufacturers could afford to ignore it as a lobby movement of sorts. Sadly despite great efforts over the years IPMS does kind of remain a small voice in the industry as a whole. Trucks. Please re read that paragraph. It was firmly a 'what if'. The scenario being manufacturers only making what sells in large quantities with low quality. I was not knocking truck modellers nor your promotion of it. You are more than entitled to do so. I will address how I view this forum on a seperate thread if you don't mind however and how it reflects on the IPMS in general.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2010 13:47:49 GMT
... Nick. If the society could prove its case and grow to be inclusive of all modelling genres and sell itself to what is actually a very introverted hobby there is no way the manufacturers could afford to ignore it as a lobby movement of sorts. Sadly despite great efforts over the years IPMS does kind of remain a small voice in the industry as a whole. Well Tim, suggestions on how the Society may achieve these aims would be greatly appreciated. May I suggest putting together something and offering it to the EC, email addresses are available here: ipmsuk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=committee&action=display&thread=387 or should you wish to post your submission: www.ipms-uk.co.uk/committee.htm Please do!
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tim
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Post by tim on Mar 1, 2010 14:18:07 GMT
@ Playtime ;D Thought you would like that. Yes they are 'live steam' They look smashing when first built but after a few outings and the heat of using a minature boiler the paint and surrounding metal gets a bit 'worn'. Real life weathering in action you could say. As for the stash I am taking a very active interest in it now and lucky for me I built a full loft of it in the last 20 years so I am well sorted. One of Nicks much hated collectors.. But with one exception my stash was all bought with an eye to value for subject matter and quality of moulding. The drawback is how can you tell the quality of a kit without taking it out of the box now so many of us can only get exactly the kit we would like via the web? I stuck my neck out recently and bought a Hobby Boss Pola. The price for the ship is low so I was expecting something fairly basic but what arrived after taking advice from White ensign fitted the bill nicely. I have a base to detail up based on advice from a supplier of many kits of the type. Value for money? Certainly. A risk? Yes. I was unable to see the actual parts and make an assesment and thats the rub really as a newcomer would base impressions not on many but on one. and if that first one is poor...You know what they say about first impressions? @ Nick. Thanks for the links I do have a few ideas but will need to flesh them out. I won't be very surprised if they have been tried before but maybe its worth a dusting down and re examine.
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Post by playtime on Mar 2, 2010 13:01:12 GMT
The drawback is how can you tell the quality of a kit without taking it out of the box ...? 1) Buy a magazine that reviews kits your interested in. 2) Ask here. 3) Don't buy of ebay
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