M7 Priest Kangaroo. Did the US Army use them?

[neilscrim]

I've decided to restore a partially built Italeri M7 Priest Kangaroo. There's not a lot of info on the web but I've read the background info of how the Canadians invented 72 of them and then handed back the M7s when they moved over to the RAM Kangaroo.

I was going to build it as a British M7 but the Italeri kit has the US upswept return rollers and US style (and position) headlights.

If the US Army used M7 Kangaroos then I'd build it straight out of the box but I can't find any info that they did. Did they use them?

[foxy]

I am a little perplexed at your M7 Priest Idea, this was an American conversion on the Lee Chassis, you may be mixeing up the Sexton/25Pdr which was built on the Sherman Chassis by Canada, this was used also by the British Army, as was the M7 Priest/105mm for a short time.

Sextons used both the top roller version and the later small off set roller at the rear of the supporting main wheels.

Early production Sexton was based on the Lee and later version on the Sherman.

The M7 Priest 105mm was also configured with early/Lee and later Sherman conversions, but this type was an American Invention.

The british used(M7) in the Desert and Sicily adventures, but later handed most back to the US forces, having enuff Sextons by then to continue.

The Canadian Ram (Tank Version) was used as a training vehicle, but only sore action as a command and troop carrier(APC) with the turret removed.
Again there were some with early rollers and later versions.

Hope this helps.

[foxy]

Just had a look at my references on the Kangaroo.

This was a Canadian Ram tank with turret and associate equipment removed to provide space for carrying 11 Infantry in battle order into battle. the vehicle had a crew of two, Driver/Gunner.
There were added hand and foot grips to the sides.

[neilscrim]

Hi Foxy, Hmm...interesting thought...

I've just indulged in Concord's British Armour in Sicily and Italy (great book btw) which shows a British Priest Kangaroo.
The Sexton was a slightly different looking animal as the gun was centrally mounted whereas the Priest was slightly offset, plus obviously the Priest had the 'pulpit' and the sexton didn't.

The pic in the book seems to show it's not a Sexton as the frontal armour is not the right shape, nor are the rear bins. They also have a colour profile showing a Priest Kangaroo so I'm assuming they haven't mis-labelled captions, though that wouldn't be the first time it happened

There's a copy of this pic on the web at:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_%28armoured_personnel_carrier%29

I got the background info about the Priest Kangaroo at this website:

www.canadiansoldiers.com/mediawiki-1.5.5/index.php?title=Kangaroo&printable=yes

Which says the Canadians got hold of M7s, converted them, used them, then gave them back

So, we now have 2 questions...

Did the British ever have Priest Kangaroos or were they Sextons?

Did the US use Priest Kangaroos?

[John Tapsell]

Neil,

The Priest Kangaroos were initially used by Canadian units in Normandy, but later by the British. Off the top of my head, I can't remember which regiments operated them, but remember that they wouldn't be operated by infantry regts - they were 'armoured' regts and carried troops from infantry regts.

Ram Kangaroos were used in the sameway.

Your reference to the bogie units as being 'US' is incorrect. Priests were fitted with a variety of bogie units during their production and the style reflects production vintage NOT nationality. More correctly, the Italeri bogies represent a late production feature that may have been more common on US-operated M7s, but were not exclusive to them.

There were no Sextons converted - quite the opposite. The Priests were available because they were being replaced in the Royal Artillery by the Sextons (it simplified British logistics because the Sextons had 25pdr guns rather than 105mm guns)

The Americans did not use Kangaroos - there may have been rare (unrecorded) occasions when American troops might have been carried in British/Canadian Kangaroos, but they had none of their own.

Regards,
John

[neilscrim]

John, you've confirmed my worst fears.

I called the suspension differences "US style" as it seems most commonwealth AFVs didn't have upswept rollers. It's annoying to see straight arm rollers on a commonwealth M7s, once again I am dogged by the d**n straight arm rollers which Foxy helped me out with a few weeks back. So Foxy, fancy buying another Academy Lee so I can have more suspension units?

I also found this facinating article about the conversion of the M7 to Kangaroo by the British Army. It's a technical report listing the reason for the conversion, what was removed from the M7 and what was added.

web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/apckang2.htm


Anyway, using a logical train of thought I might be able to get away building the M7 as per kit, that logic being:

Canadians borrowed M7s from the US and converted them. It's highly unlikely they'd have changed the suspension to straight arm roller so the M7s would probably have remained in 'US' pattern, i.e. as per kit. So I'll make the model to be one of the initial batch of Kangaroos. It also gives me a bit of leeway to 'personalise' the model.

I'll avoid doing a Brit version because they seemed to have either the M3 suspension (as seen in some photos) or M4 straight arm rollers.

I was hoping to do a US version as it would have been easier to get figures to go inside the M7. So my M7 will have to remain unpopulated....

If it ever gets finished and I get the chance to turn it into an IPMS article I've already got a title for it: "The resurrection of a de-frocked Priest".

I wonder how many people I can upset with that

[foxy]

Hi Neil.
Well do not plan to buy another M3 lol .

Might get the Grant version though.

Yep there were Priest Kangas in Italy, converted for carrying Inf, as has been said.

A total of 102 were converted to APCs, in 1944/45,also there were Sherman Kangas done the same way with turrets etc removed, these were for the 8th Army in Italy, they could carry 22 plus two crew.

But the Americans only used them as Mobile Arty and not as any other use.
As a final note, the Marines in the pacific used the M7 105mm to good effect.

[snowdog]

What an interesting thread! Having just bought the new Academy M7 Priest I am looking to build up my knowledge on the subject. I first got interested in this vehicle as a youngster building the Matchbox version, but I had no idea of the possible variants that were used. By the way, there is an interesting review in a recent Military Modelling (I think) re the Academy kit, identifiying it as being less than accurate. However if the versions described here are anything to go by then what the heck, should be able to model any of a multitude of vehicles. Neil, I know you are contemplating a revamp of the Italeri kit, but the Academy kit is worth serious consideration. Good luck with your project though, can we see some piccies when its done?

[neilscrim]

Hi snowdog,

The reason for revamping the kit is due to the fact I'm experimenting with a whole load of techniques and paints so an old kit was perfect for the task.

I also wanted to mess about personalising it, as happened in real life, though some of the changes are subtle (slightly bigger add on armour).

In fact at the MK show yesterday I saw one of these Kangaroo kits priced at £18 so its become relatively expensive. It would be fun to buy the Academy Priest and do your own Kangaroo mod, ala real life.

There seems to be a lot of variations to the M7 Kangaroo with armament, add on armour, bogies, 30cals intead of 50 cals in the pulpit and the light clusters positions, either mid-way (as per kit) or at the top.

The kit supplies the Boys AT rifle to be mounted on the vehicle but although that may have happened it's unlikely as, from what i can gather on the web, the Boys was generally withdrawn from service before the Priests were modified as the rifle couldn't take on more than a Panzer II. That's a shame, I like the look of the Boys

Bogies/suspension could have been the M3 or M4 type and as the intitial Canadian M7s came from the US then the tracks may have been different as well.

What all this adds up to is that you can build an M7 Kangaroo in virtually any configuration you want. If you're really ambitious you could try building a Sexton from a Priest!

The Priest doesn't really interest me as such, I've read online reviews about the bogies being wrong. That kind of thing tends not to worry me, if it looks right then it is right, but I don't know whether the kit looks right when it's built and finished. However I'm tempted by the Grant (like Foxy)

Pics? I'm taking photos as I go. With a bit of luck I hope to turn it into an article for the mag but the greatest plans of mice and men....

If it ever gets finished I'll post a pic. If you want to see work in progress PM me your email address.

Neil

[foxy]

Seems the Priest Kanga were used by the British in Germany after the Rhine crossing, so lasted longer than I thought.

[neilscrim]

As requested, here's a finished pic of the Kangaroo. Hopefully it'll appear as an article in the mag once I've finished writing the article.

img184.imageshack.us/img184/3360/kangaroofa5.jpg

[Deleted]

Nice one Neil, nicely detalied, weathered and well photographed, JT will snap your hand off matey. So that's 2000 words(ish) and loads of photos.

[neilscrim]

Well, actually...

Word says 3,200 and counting.... ;D

And lots of photos

[Deleted]

neilscrim said:

Well, actually...

Word says 3,200 and counting.... ;D

And lots of photos

God lad, I hope there's not too many big words though ...

[foxy]

Well theres Kangaroo for one ;D.

Maybe shorten to Kanga.

Glad them Wheels came in handy Neal.

Nice troop carrier, I like the figure also, great work matey.