Spitfire PR XI

[richard]

Hi All
I am avid PR fan due to family RAF PR connections and a long love affair with WW2 RAF Benson. I need some help on the SPitifre PR XI.

The early production PR.XIs had the fixed tailwheel and the broad cord rudder. Retractable tailwheels were fitted as standard at a later date and the majority of the Mk XIs built had the later large area "pointed" rudder. 260 Mk XIs were powered by Merlin 61, 63 or 63A engines while the remaining 211 used the high altitude Merlin 70. All of the Merlin 70 and 198 of the Merlin 60 series aircraft were fitted with the Vokes Aero-Vee dust filter in the extended, streamlined carburettor air intake under the nose.
Does anyone know the serial number of the a/c when this change from fixed to retractable tailwheel appeared ?
And the Rudder type change ,which serial number a/c was used for that ?

Any suggestions?

Thanks
Richard

[COLIN SHIPTON-KNIGHT]

Richard,

Welcome to my world......

We have emailed.. 'Ken'... This is the place to try and get the answer.

You never know. Although I suspect 'Morgan and Shacklady' is the best resource for trying to answer this question..?

Colin

[kitspackman]

Feb 28, 2009 13:13:58 GMT richard said:

I am avid PR fan due to family RAF PR connections and a long love affair with WW2 RAF Benson.

Richard,

Good heavens, you sound like an echo of me! DO tell us more about your RAF PR and Benson connections please.

My Dad flew PR for much of WWII, with 541 Sqdn. early on and around D-Day, and we lived at Benson for his last posting in the 50s.

I've got the Morgan and Shacklady book, if I can remember where I stashed it, so I'll dig it out and see if I can find the answer to your question too.

[tiggs63]

OK if i understand rightly the PR XI came from 2 sources pre prod XIs from Mk IX airframes type 374 and normal XIs type 365 the former were Mk IX airframes with merlin 61,63 and 63a engines a fixed tail wheel and original rudder, armament and some Armour removed. later models had retractable tail wheel and broad chord rudder the 1st 3 a/c had merlin 61s en362 to pl762, 765 and 767 had merlin 63s. merlin 70 began with pl763 then jumped to 768 and until final production the 70 was standard. so i think the production type std of 365 covers en 149, 151, 153, 154, 260, 263, 330, 332, 337, 338, 341, 343, 346, 348, 385, 391, 395, 396, 407, 430, 503, 504, 507, 508, 652, 685.
hope this help a bit

[tiggs63]

OBTW i live not far from benson and for those with a liking for the canberra PR9 i work with a recent former tecchy of the above.

[richard]

Hi Colin, Kit

Colin good to hear from you and I have now purchased a copy of 'Morgan and Shacklady' but even they so far have not really unravelled this mystery . The PR gang are such a maverick bunch and even more their a/c. Everything done here anad there and then somewhere else with no real records ( as I know from personal experience when trying to research them at PRO Kew) !
As my godfather told me who flew MK IX Spits in Italy "they were a bit of a secret Bunch from what I heard"
Kit : to answer your question in brief:
For many years now I have been tracing my unlce's career as a PR pilot having been in contact with a number of PR pilots over the years but only finding one who knew my uncle well through the PR reunion.
I was invited in 1981 to their reunion do at RAF Benson this included all PR squadrons ( mosquitos and spitfires) so spoke to lots of aircrew but only briefly.
My uncle started his service career as a Photo Reconnaissance pilot flying Spitfire PR IV and XI from RAF Benson with 1 PRU ( A fight) then 542 sq (B flight) in 1942/43. After completing his tour of operational duty he became the test pilot for the "Initial Installation and Preparation Unit "at RAF Benson which "specialised" all the in coming new photo reconnaissance spitfires and mosquitoes before they went onto their service squadrons both at home and abroad. This involved adding cameras , special modifications , engines, tweaks, different propellers, pressure testing etc .he then air tested each one before it left for operational duty.Th IPP unit no one ever knows about but were immensley important to the PR squadrons because of their role. He also ferried a/c in the UK and overseas.
He went back to ops with the RAF Film Unit, flying a PR IV mossie copvering the ops of the Banff strike wing being killed in action on the 09/04/45 over the Kattergatt off Denmark whilst attacking 3 U boats.

[richard]

Tiggs

Thanks for the reply.
That covers most of my knowledge as well on this qustion. In Morgan /Shacklady you have a photo of EN149 ( p 387) which had the old style rudder and fixed tail wheel and they say " Thirty examples were ready for despatch to Heston when Supermarine agreed to convert them and future airframes allocated to PR duties on F MkIX assembly lines" I wonder if this could be the batch which had the old stlye rudder and wheel?
Heston being the skilled work force who could make the sealed fuel tank wings.

[edgar]

Might be able to add a little clarity. Mod 914 was to "Introduce the XII rudder as standard" on the VII, VIII, IX & XVI from 24-5-44. Although not mentioned, I'd expect the XI, even if not originally built with that rudder, to have been retrofitted with it from that date, as well, so trying to find a "start-point" serial no might be a bit futile.
Edgar

[richard]

Edgar

I thought you had craked it but looking at a Photo of PL775 with a pointed rudder and retracted tail wheel, I find it rolled out of the Aldermaston factory on the 22-4-44. See what I mean about PR a/c being a law unto themselves.
Now that you suggested the type mod it looks like all later aircraft (Type 365) with Merlin 70s had the retractable tailwheel and broad-chord rudder as standard ?
Will have to look at photos of the earlier PR XIs with Merlin 61 and 63 , to see if there is a link / clue there.

Richard

[edgar]

It also rather depends on when the photo was taken. Having the rounded rudder wasn't cast in stone; replacement was a doddle, and retro-fitting happened all the time.
Edgar

[kitspackman]

Richard,

Fascinating stuff about your Uncle, I'm sure he and Dad must have come across each other at some time.

Dad was with 1 PRU at Benson early on, flying the 'letter' Marks of PR Spitfire, most of which ended up as PRIVs after umpteen mods. Dad spent a lot of time '....on a windy plateau called RAF St Eval' flying them before being sent out to the Middle East with a rag-tag collection of various Marks. He came back to Benson in the build up for D-Day, on 541, and travelled through Europe with various flights, ending up on PRXIXs.

Small world.