RJAF Hunters

[kiwichappers]

The debate.
Undersides of Royal Jordanian Air Force Hunters. Where they Silver or Light Aircraft Grey [RAF]?

What I think.
The Hunters were delivered to Jordan in 1958 by which time I understand the RAF had switched over to Polyurethane paints and therefore LAG under surfaces. Since the aircraft supplied to the RJAF were refurbished RAF machines I think it unlikely they had silver on the undersides.
There is a Jordanian marked Hunter in a museum in Israel which confirms this, although I do not know if this is an accurate exhibit as I do not trust Israelis' on principal. This may just be the exception to my prejudice, does anybody know!

Thank you for your help.

[Rod McQ]

According to "Hunter Squadrons of the Royal Air Force" by Richard Ward (Modeldecal) the switch from silver undersides to Light Aircraft Grey did not take place until 1966 so it is likely that Hunter delivered to Jordan in 1958 would have had silver undersurfaces. Those Hunters were ex-RAF Mk.6s.

However, between 1968 and 1971 Jordan received more Hunters which were refurbished ex-RAF and Dutch F.4s, F.6s and FGA.9s. These were all brought up to full FGA.9 standard under the designations Mk.73/73A/73B - it is likely that they would have had grey undersurfaces.

Jordan also received some ex-Saudi Hunters and and 12 ex-Abu Dhabi a/c in 1975

[Rod McQ]

Since I posted my reply yesterday I have had time to do a bit more research.

You refer to a Hunter preserved at a museum in Israel in Jordanian markings - if this is the Israeli Airforce Museum at Hatzerim then the Hunter is not Jordanian. According to this source www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/hunter/survivor.php?id=485, the Hunter is an ex-Chilean machine which the IAF Museum acquired in exchange for a Mystere IVA in 1989. This is believed to be the only Hunter in Israel and I think the serial quoted J-747 is the aircraft's Chilean serial number as the Jordanians don't use letter prefixes but Chile does and I think they used J on their Hunters.

The colour scheme of this aircraft is probably not representative of a genuine Jordanian aircraft and, as with all preserved aircraft there is always the question of whether or not the aircraft has been repainted by the museum and if repainted, whether they got the colours right.

Going back to the question of the underside colours, my theory is the early Jordanian machines (all ex-RAF Mk.6s) were probably delivered in 1958 with silver undersides. Most, if not all, of these were destroyed in the 6 Day War in 1967 and replaced by the Mk.73s (ex-RAF and Dutch a/c refurbished to FGA.9 standard) delivered from 1968 onwards and these would have light Aircraft Grey undersides.

[kiwichappers]

Thanks Rod. Seems there are more Al Quwwat al-Jawwiya Almalakiya al-Urduniya Hunters than I thought. The good news is I was looking for an excuse to build an FGA.9.

[Rod McQ]

No problem kiwi, actually I have just checked the ukserials.com site and they state that Hunter XF445 became Chilean J-747 not XF446 - looks like a typing error in the Thunder and Lightnings heading to the photo

[kiwichappers]

I guess as always it pays to cross check info.

[sloegin57]

Kiwi and Rod,

'ang on a mo chaps. Just preparing a photo essay on Jordanian Hunters for you. If you want to do an FGA9 Kiwi, how about an Indian AF F56A in Jordanian AF markings - honest. First RJAF aircraft with LAG undersurface was 717 - didn't last long - destroyed on the ground by an Israeli Mirage. I'll put the stuff up tonight.

Till later

DR

[Rod McQ]

While I await sloegin's Hunter photos I have some more information of RJAF Hunters.

The F.6s were serialled between 700 and 725 and from 800 to 813

The FGA.73s i.e. the FGA.9 equivalents had serials in the following ranges

FGA.73A
814 to 818 and 825/K, 826/L, 827/M, 828/I, 829/N, 830/P, 831/Q and 832 - all ex-RAF delivered between 1967 and 1969

FGA.73B
840 to 851 - a mix of RAF and Dutch machines delivered between June and December 1971

There were also 2 FR.10s delivered in 1972 the serials were 852 & 853

[sloegin57]

Kiwichappers, Rod McQ. Herewith a few notes and photos as promised. Hope they help:-



RJAF F.6
Initial Jordanian Hunter F6's delivered from the UK in 1958/60 were in the standard RAF camouflage of Dark Green over Dark Sea Grey with Aluminium undersurfaces with RJAF roundels in the standard six positions. The Jordanian flag was on the fin. During their first refurbishment at Kingston circa 1961/2, most of the F.6's were upgraded to FR.6 (this before the export model numbers came into being) by having camera noses fitted and the wings upgraded to Interim FGA9 standard. Back in service, the nose, fin and tailplane were painted red with the Squadron badge applied to the nose. In many cases, the wing tips were painted white, following RAF practice. Subsequent individual aircraft and small batches from the UK were in this latter scheme with the red and the 1 Squadron marking being applied by HS at Kingston.

At least one F6 had been delivered to Jordon by the start of the Six Day War on June 5th 1967 in the new Epoxy scheme to DTD5555. Former 229 OCU F6 XG159 had its Minor servicing completed at Number 5 MU RAF Kemble on the 30th March 1967 during which it was resprayed Dark Green over Dark Sea Grey with Grey 9-05-BS2660 (early LAG) undersurfaces. RJAF markings were painted on and the aircraft was despatched by Kemble on the 17th April 1967 arriving at RAF Luqa from Dunsfold and flown by a Contractor pilot on the 22nd April 1967, departing for Amman AB the following day only to be destroyed on the ground some six weeks later at Mafraq AB at the start of Operation "Moked", the beginning of the Six-Day War.

At around 11.50hrs local, sixteen of the reported twenty-three Hunters on the strength of the RJAF left three bases to attack various targets in Israel. Regrettably the Operational Records and serial numbers of the aircraft involved from those bases have not survived. As related in the captions, two aircraft serials are known as they were destroyed the same day and the records of those survived elsewhere and although it has been stated that the entire RJAF Hunter fleet was written off on the first day of the War, three aircraft did survive simply by being in UK at Kingston on refurbishment. These were 704/E and 711/M both delivered to the UK 17/1/67 and 715/Q delivered to the UK 15/5/67.

Following the Six Day War, the first Hunter to be delivered to Jordan from the UK was 814, formerly, according to the paper work with it, XF514 ex 229 OCU and overhauled at 5 MU Kemble. This was the second aircraft that I recorded in the DTD5555 scheme with LAG undersurfaces.

In September 1967, 43 Squadron RAF disbanded at Khormaksar leaving 8 Squadron as the sole Hunter Unit there, with 208 Sqd being at Al Muharraq, Bahrain. With the disbandment of 43 Squadron a number of surplus FGA.9's (possibly eight) and repainted in Jordanian markings were despatched from Khormaksar via Bahrain to Jordan in November 1967. These took up 8-- prefixed serials but otherwise retained the camouflage pattern that they had had in RAF service. My records show that approximately two thirds of the Khormaksar Strike Wing (combined ) and for which the scheme had been primarily designed had, by that time, been refinished in the new scheme, usually at 5 MU Kemble, with LAG undersurfaces. Some of these have turned up reported in publications as FGA.73's so they must have either been returned to HS for refurbishment and upgrade or re-designated where they were.

Whether or not the three former Royal Saudi Air Force Hunter F.6's and two T.7's donated to Jordan in 1969 or the small force of Abu Dhabi aircraft loaned to Jordan in 1975 (but later returned) retained their "Desert" camouflage in Jordanian service is still open to question. With the two former RSAF Hunter T.7's, 616 and 617 (they lost the 70- prefix in Saudi) there is a little more certainty as they were returned to the UK in 1972 in exchange for FR.10's XG168 and XF426, although which serial ties up with Rod McQ's list I do not know. When they were returned to Kingston for overhaul, they were in a Grey/Green/Aluminium finish although where they were repainted is not known possibly in Jordan although they could have been so finished, prior to transfer, at Dhahran or Riyadh, Saudi Arabia which had better facilities. They were re-issued to the RAF at Chivenor 4 May 1972 as XX466 and XX467.

My notes regarding the RJAF Hunters peter out around 1986 due to the fact that I was an expat and spending long months out of the UK. One of the problems in trying to update them is that various publications are at so much odds with each other, particularly on dates which can vary up to as much as three years that I have ceased to rely on them and hence not been able to keep the notes up to date. My comments against FR.6 712 that it was shot down by an IAI Snunit (CM170 Magister) are the result of some extremely long, tortuous, sometimes devious but mostly diplomatic correspondence with the respective Ministries in Jordan, when writing from Saudi Arabia, and Israel, when writing from Scotland during the infrequent trips home. I had heard about it from a Contractor pilot delivering a Hunter to Lebanon, whilst I was in Malta in 1967 but it took until a letter briefly confirming it from the Jordanian Embassy in Riyadh in 1994 to tie it all together. The pilot of 712 ejected but being low and slow, broke his back on landing.

Kiwichappers, you asked quite simply "Undersides of Royal Jordanian Air Force Hunters. Where they Silver or Light Aircraft Grey [RAF]?".

Now I do not know if you weather your models but if you ever build a Jordanian Hunter, the following notes that I took on 704 and 711 on the 17th January 1967 may come in useful:-

"Notes on Jordanian Hunters 704 and 711.
General appearance very ragged. camouflage paint has bleached considerably. Grey has turned to a pale mauve/grey shade. Green has bleached to a pale Olive Green. Red fin/rudder, tailplane and nose have been applied by hand and are very patchy. Also white wing tips. No attempt to mask white on tips applied by big brush. Undersurface of rear fuselage is stained a dirty brownish silver. All colours have turned dead matt. Wolfs head on 711 has extra detail. All markings hand painted"

In addition to the above. During my time in the Middle East, I could not help but note that everything, and I mean everything, gets covered by a thin film of dust that sticks. Pick your desert - pick your colour, everything from white to grey. The desert in Jordan and parts of Saudi Arabia is a sort of off white with a yellowish tint ( I still find it today in some of my books that I brought home and I have been back nearly ten years !!). The best way I have found to model aircraft in the desert is to fade the colours well, lightly spray the decals with a very pale grey and when applied and the model is finished - blow talcum powder over it!.

Hope the above helps.

Dennis Robinson

PS
Also don't forget the obligatory Gekko on the canopy and equally obligatory Snake up the nose wheel bay especially after landing where it was nice and cool - that was usually where the Jordanian and Saudi groundcrew looked first - after all - Snake = free lunch. RAF groundcrew were a little more technical - they took a broom handle. After all - Snake = run.

DR

[kiwichappers]

Dennis,
Ah the dust! We have an amalgam of Shouf and Amman through a lot of our possesions so I should be able to make a good match.

Thank you for the comprehensive information which is very welcome. Another case of a simple project expanding by the day which is how I like it.

Kind regards
Francis

[alfie]

Gentlemen

Outstanding research and information. Mind if I use chunks of it in my next Magazine column?

Regards and TIA, Alfie

[Rod McQ]

Alfie
Most of my contribution to this thread comes from an article in the short-lived magazine Air Forces Research (produced by the people behind Air Forces Monthly). There was a article on the RJAF in issue 5 and it has details of most types in service with the RJAF up to the mid-1990's when the article was published. As regards the Hunter it has a list of serials, marks, delivery date, previous identities and fates - I can sent you a photocopy if you want it.

Sloegin
Lovely photographs and you clearly know a great deal about the Hunter. As to the RAF Middle East Sqn FGA.9s delivered in 1967 the Air Force Research article suggests that 8 of these aircraft went to Jordan in the aftermath of the 1967 war on loan and two, XE456/L and XJ680/E returned to 8 Sqn in 1968 and of the other six 2 went to Kuwait, 3 were bought by HSA and the last XF454/A stayed in Jordan as 816.
I note your comments about the difficulty regarding previous identities of these aircraft. I read the following explanation for this somewhere.
When HSA refurbished Hunters the airframe would be split into three major components, nose, centre fuselage and rear fuselage. These would be reworked individually. When aircraft were reassembled it was possible that parts from different aircraft were combined to form a airframe. The 3 main components would still carry their original construction number plate which could be traced back to the original RAF serial. As a result, if you have a composite airframe, then the previous i/d will depend on which c/n plate you read - hence the confusion.

I have no idea whether this is true for the Hunter but I know it happened on the Canberra. In Ken Delve's excellent book on the type he gives a similar explanation and comes to the conclusion that it is almost inpossible to link serial to construction number and hence to a previous identity.

[kiwichappers]

Alfie,
In PM read untested as interested. It been a hell of a day!

regards
Francis

[sloegin57]

Mar 12, 2009 12:04:00 GMT alfie said:

Gentlemen

Outstanding research and information. Mind if I use chunks of it in my next Magazine column?

Regards and TIA, Alfie

Alfie,
thank you for the courtesy of asking - help yoursel to anything that I have put up on the site.

Rod,
your comments regarding Hunters being stripped to three basic fuselage commponents is absolutely spot on. Back in the sixties, in Malta, there were three of us, the late Bob Elliott, Terry Stapley and myself who used to religiuosly note the constructors numbers of Hunters transiting the base - particularly the export aircraft of which there were many. HS built bits had the numbers fairly accessable, except for the rear fuselage but Fairy and Fokker built bits, especially the noses had them in the most "inconvenient" places usually behind the ejector seat !. We had had many discussions as to which bit of the aircraft we should refer to as the "old" serial and although we thought we knew we needed some sort of "official line" to confirm it.

Bob, being a Flt/Sgt - Terry and I were just common Cpls, decided that a signal back to the manufacturer on some "technical" excuse would settle the matter. Fortune smiled because on the 2 March 1967, Indian AF Hunter A485 conveniently ran of the end of Luqa's runway damaging both main gear pintle housings. Of went the signal and amongst most of the other Technical guff, Bob asked "The Question". The reply that came back was to the effect that HS based the history of the aircraft on the centre section which was where the fatigue life (just coming in then) was measured. So from then on, the Constructors Number plate in the port wheel well was the prime target . The identity of that component ie the manufacturers serial number allocated when first built never changing no matter how many serials the airframe carried or how many owners it had.

Francis, my dear Sir,
the question you originally asked regarding undersurface colours for RJAF Hunters is now up to the Jury to decide. I had a dig around in the files and came across the attached shot of a Jordanian F73 (?). The original print clearly shows it to have Aluminium undersurfaces. Having had a long "think", I would like to propose the following Theory for open Debate (Gawd - its like being back at Uni again!! ).

Proposition:-
1. That RJAF Hunter aircraft prepared by Number 5 MU RAF Kemble were finished in the then new Epoxy standard to DTD 5555 of Dark Green over Dark Sea Grey with Light Aircraft Grey undersurfaces because that was the way they were preparing RAF aircraft for the Middle East.
2. That RJAF Hunter aircraft prepared/refurbished by Hawker-Siddeley at Kingston/Dunsfold were finished in the old Cellulose scheme to DTD 899 with Aluminium undersurfaces because that was what HS were Contractually obliged to do.

1. The theory is based on the fact that Kemble were busy putting Hunters from the Khormaksar Strike Wing through overhaul and repaint in the DTD 5555 scheme, which I indicated was specifically for Middle East based aircraft and because those were the instructions just did it. It is also based on the fact that as far as I know both 717 and 814 were the only Hunters prepared for the RJAF by Kemble on the authority of HM Government.

It could well be, and this is pure speculation on my part based on what I know of the mind set of both the Service and Industry, that 717 and 814 were "oddities" regarding the finish.

2. Now anyone who has been in Industry will know that "The Contract" is sacrosanct and woe betide anyone who deviates. My proposition is that HS continued to finish RJAF Hunters in the old scheme based on the Contract of 1958 and without any indication of change of finish from "The Customer", ie the RJAF, just carried on painting them so, ie Dark Green over Dark Sea Grey with Aluminium undersurfaces to DTD 899 (Cellulose).

Okay Students - Discuss !!

I have attached three more shots, the top two of which are relevant to this thread and Kiwichappers original question. With regard to the top shot, I believe that four aircraft were converted to this FR configuration and the colour scheme is interesting. Standard camo of Dark Green over Dark Sea Grey with Aluminium undersurfaces. Red areas very similar to RJAF Hunters of that time on the nose, fin/rudder and tailplane/elevators.

The bottom shot I have included for general interest. The three initial T69's for the Iraq Air Force were fairly unique as mentioned in the caption. The size of the serial on the fuselage side is noteworthy and, as I have mentioned, very Persian in style. The fin flag is pre 1963 style and was probably changed on arrival in Iraq. As far as I am aware only ESCI produced decals many moons ago for this style of marking on the Hunter - I feel a quiet word in young Dave Howley's and young Dick Wards ears coming on



Help yourself Alfie - if any of you Gentlemen would like larger images for reference just mail me.

Thank you Kiwichappers for raising the question - I now feel the sudden urge to drag out my Aeroclub 6 and T7 - trouble is - no RJAF decals in 48th. I wonder if I could get them done by Perth time ?

Trust the above helps.

Dennis Robinson

[kiwichappers]

Guys I am somewhat stunned by your comprehensive responses and thank you for the sacrifice of valuable modelling time to assist my project.
regards
Francis