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Post by alfie on May 4, 2009 11:43:46 GMT
I've received a request to provide the Squadron markings for Defiant L7015. The resulting model is to be a memorial for Air Gunner Sgt Atkins who was killed on 19th July, 1940. www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/f5411412.htmlThe aircraft was assigned to 141 Sqn whose aircraft wore the codes TW. The question is TW-WHAT? I've looked in the book Turret Fighters and several WW2 camouflage & markings books, but have so far this weekend drawn a blank. I have another 3 or 4 books in mind - Dulcimus, MMP, Air Britain (not the Defiant File), Warpaint. I don't have the Profile (#117) to hand, so could someone check that for me, please? Also, Mushroom Monthly for October 1990 had an article on 141 Sqn. Does anyone have a copy? Of course, if you have the answer to hand, then please let me know your source. Defiant references: homepage.ntlworld.com/markansell/bpa/reference.htmlTIA, Regards, Alfie
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Post by alfie on May 4, 2009 19:59:50 GMT
I've drawn a blank so far. The only 3 books that I haven't been able to look at are: - Defiant File - Alec Brew (Air Britain)
- Profile 117
- Warpaint
Does anyone have copies of these that they could look at, please? Further info can be found at www.boultonpaul.com/Regards, Alfie
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Post by sloegin57 on May 4, 2009 21:04:12 GMT
Alfie,
just checked Rawlings "Fighter Squadrons...(nothing), Bowyers "Fighting Colours" (nothing) and Warpaint. The latter does mention that on the date you gave that 141 had 12 aircraft at Hawkinge and that on that date they lost six Defiants with four pilots and five gunners killed. After that they were withdrawn to Prestwick. No serials/codes given I'm afraid.
It might be worth while checking the Units 540 in the mean time I'll check my old Air Pictorials, there used to be some good Unit histories in there.
DR
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Post by alfie on May 4, 2009 22:42:03 GMT
Dennis Thank you for that. The F541 for 141 Sqn is the first link in my original post. The magazine references are in the second link to save you trawling through too many magazines. There's some more good information here www.boultonpaul.com/ It would seem that of the 2 Defiant Day Fighter Squadrons, only 264 Sqn got themselves photographed. Regards, Alfie
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Post by theplasticsurgeon on May 6, 2009 21:24:47 GMT
Thanks for going to all this effort Alfie and DR - it is appreciated. Success will make this model unique, and the tribute that Air Gunner Atkins deserves.
Regards, Tim
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Post by gannetmod on May 10, 2009 8:10:28 GMT
I have checked "Fighter Squadrons of the RAF" and it does not list L7015. L7009, L7016 and L7036 TW-H are listed, the latter being the only 141 Sqn Defiant whose code is given. Nothing in Michael JF Bowyer's "Fighting Colours either. Sorry it's not much help, but at least it's two more references checked. Richard
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tim
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Post by tim on May 10, 2009 14:25:32 GMT
L7015 c/n 66 delv to 19MU 14.5.40, Stn Flt Turnhouse 5.7.40. 141 sqd 6.7.40, on first operation shot down by ME109 0ff Folkstone, 19.7.40 PO R. Kidson, Sgt F.P.J. Atkins listed Missing.
the c/n designation is BPA's internal construction number so it was the 66th aircraft of the batch made. It was also part of the first batch of 87 aircraft delivered. Also noted is the prefix letters for squadron are TW What letter is appropriate I do not know. Its apparently in serial number order the 23rd aircraft allocated to the unit though if that has relevance I have no clue. This is from Alec Brew/ Air britain Defiant File.
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tim
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Post by tim on May 10, 2009 14:43:17 GMT
I have also checked Mark Ansells excellent reference piece published by Mushroom publications and Alec Brews history of Boulton Paul Aircraft company. and there is no further info to be had there. Both gentlemen I believe had full access to the remaining library that is held by the association (BPA) which basically only gives info to point of delivery and by serial number rather than 'call sign'. Sadly 141 was to say the least camera shy. However there may be a small chance or two left. www.kbobm.org/index.htmNow whilst this will get you the Hawkinge air museum website I would recommend a phonecall. Having done quite a bit of digging on various subjects in my time I have noted you always find someone lurking that has such obscure information or better yet knows a man who knows a man.. and dropping a few names sometimes opens the strangest of doors. Give them a ring and ask. And if they don't know ask if they have any ideas who might. Good luck in your search. Please post again if I can be of any further help to you.
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tim
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Post by tim on May 10, 2009 14:47:41 GMT
Actually I am being silly here. Email the BPA association with your enquiry. Mark Ansell is a member and if i know these guys they will have all his research on 141 sqd that he could gather tidied away somewhere. there 'may' be a picture or at least the info you seek in there somewhere.
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Post by alfie on May 10, 2009 15:10:52 GMT
Thank you to all that have trawled their refence material looking for the answer to this enquiry. The only references that I haven't managed to look at personally is Profile 117 & Mushroom Monthly. I think that my only options are now: - Aeroplane/Spotter, etc magazine from 1940 (I do have a few copies)
- the Boulton Paul Association
- DoRIS (Hendon)
- RAF Historical Branch
- Public Records Office, Kew
It would be nice to know where the decal/kit manufacturer's got their 141 Sqn information from as Almark Sheet C2, the Airfix kit and the Classic Airframes kit contain options for 141 Sqn. The search continues. Alfie
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tim
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Post by tim on May 10, 2009 15:50:58 GMT
On the off chance though mentioned earlier that someone has looked I did re read warpaint 42 by Alan W Hall. Couple of points though accuracy may be an issue. The inside cover has cock o the north painted by R. J. Caruana. it gives the call sign TW-H on L7009. Later in the book it allocates TW-H to serial no L7036 in June 1940. Something doesn't add up. The text states that the squadron recieved its first 4 defiants on 4/4/40. Its full complement of 14 aircraft having been delivered by 3/6/40. At least it might help narrow down the call sign allocation? ok...bear with me.
L6976 del 1/6/40 - L6983 del 4/4/40 (SD) - L6984 del 16/3/40 - L6987 del 3/5/40 (Swung on take off) - L6988 del 3/5/40 - L6989 del 3/6/40 - L6991 del 3/5/40 (trans 5OTU) - L6992 del 3/5/40 - L6994 del 8/6/40 - L6995 del 8/4/40 (SD) - L6997 del 6/5/40 - L6998 del 6/5/40 (Was grounded due to taxi incident on 8/7/40) - L6999 del 24/5/40 (dam) - L1701 del 27/5/40 (SD) - L1709 del 25/5/40 (SD) (Confirmed carried TW-H) - L7011 del 25/5/40 - L7012 del 25/5/40 (Was grounded due to landing error) - L7014 del 24/5/40 (dam) - L7015 del 6/7/40 (SD) (ex 264 aircraft) - L7016 del 25/5/40 (SD)
I make it 20 Defiants delivered to 141 sqd at the time of 19/7/40. 3 of these were out of action due to self inflicted damage. 1 transfered to 5OTU leaving a potential 16 aircraft available for the action on 19/7/40. (This is all gleened from the records reproduced by Alec Brew in his Defiant file)
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tim
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Post by tim on May 10, 2009 15:58:07 GMT
And as usual there is more. Poor L7015 was a fated machine sadly. It was originally delivered to 264 squadron on 31/5/40. It was at Stn Flt Turnhouse on 5/7/40 and transferred the very next day to 141. There is no record of any return to factory or depot for repairs but I would guess something had happened.
Records have it that 141 intercepted some JU87's which had fighter cover given by ME 109's. Very unlucky.
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Post by theplasticsurgeon on May 16, 2009 9:11:14 GMT
Can I express my thanks to Tim for his sterling effort in finding this information for me. I can see that you've really got the bit between your teeth, and are determined to find that code. It is all well appreciated - thank you.
This kit is next on my list to start. I'm building it for a colleague's father. He popped in to see me at Gloucester Model Show, and really appreciates all the effort that is being gone to.
Thanks Again, Tim
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Post by Bri on May 22, 2009 20:45:55 GMT
Hi, chaps. You can add Profile 117 to the "not helpful" list - it just quotes two identities for TW-H, viz. L7009 & N3394, and the ref. ".... only a badly shot-up L7014 landed at the home base." Cheers, Bri.
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Post by theplasticsurgeon on May 27, 2009 15:16:11 GMT
Thanks again for all help - even if it is to eliminate research possibilities.
I've now contacted the Boulton Paul Association, to see what their research can come up with.
Cheers, Tim
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